Heather Marold Thomason Of Primal Supply Meats

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In this episode of CHEF Radio Podcast, host Eli Kulp sits down with Heather Thomason to discuss the importance of genetics in farming, selling sustainable products, and being a woman in a male dominated field.

Heather specializes in whole animal butchery and is the founder of Primal Supply Meats, a Philadelphia-based butchery and local sourcing company. Since 2016, they've been building a supply chain to connect regional farmers and slaughterhouses to restaurants, chefs and home cooks who care about sourcing local, sustainably raised meats. You can learn more about Heather on her website primalsupplymeats.com

Heather Marold Thomason Of Primal Supply Meats

Eli Kulp: [00:00:00] Hey 

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Eli Kulp: [00:02:27] All right, everybody. Welcome back to the chef radio podcast. Uh, we are virtual today. With our next guest, we have Heather Merrill, Thomason of primal supply meets here in Philadelphia. Uh, welcome Heather. Welcome to this podcast. You are coming to us from where, 

Eli: [00:02:45] um, I am parked in my office in our brewery town headquarters.

All right. 

Eli Kulp: [00:02:49] I can, there's a small window behind the other and you can see the cut room and refrigerated cut room and all the guys working in there. So it looks like you guys are staying pretty busy today. Cool. Let me give you a little background on you. So you are a former graphic designer term butcher, which is interesting.

Uh, you are also the owner founder of private spy meets here in Philadelphia. Like I said, uh, where you guys supply sustainably raised grass fed beef, as well as pasture-raised pork, chicken, and other specialty items, since nobody in your first store in 2016. Well, no, not your first store, right? Your first you're online, you're online.

So it started with an online, which we'll get more into. You now have three stores in three different Philadelphia neighborhoods. When you got to South Philly, Fishtown and Brewerytown cool sort of 

Heather Thomason: [00:03:48] neighborhoods, a really nice triangle and also like very like unique, independent residential neighborhoods, which, which means we just have good neighbors.

Eli Kulp: [00:03:58] Very cool. Let's see. So you now have, you've grown to three stores, like I said, and you know, the state sustainably and humanely raised products that you sell are incredible. And we're going to get a lot more into that primal. Uh, you specialize in what whole, whole animal, but you're you're right. Yeah. So, you know, you're bringing these whole animals and ensuring that every part of that animal is used.

And I think it really respects the, the animal itself, the life of the 

Heather Thomason: [00:04:27] animal. Yeah, for sure. I mean, if we're going to eat meat, you know, uh, we really got to think about the fact that these are built beings and, you know, respectful and, you know, make, make it worth it. 

Eli: [00:04:38] Yeah, for 

Eli Kulp: [00:04:38] sure. Uh, so what's, what's, what's going on in your world today?

Like what's, what are the sort of pressing issues or things that you really excited about? Where's 

Eli: [00:04:46] your focus at? Wow. I just took a really 

Heather Thomason: [00:04:48] deep breath. I mean, we still, we are still in a pandemic, you know, so that's kinda like for better or worse, it's still a pressing issue. Um, but you know, like you said, the business is it's growing.

Um, it's pretty interesting. I actually keep having the same conversation with people lately where they're like, man, you guys are crushing it because you know, on, from the outside, from social media, everybody sees all the ways that we have grown in the last year. But, um, so much of the like hustle and pivot and work that we've done to grow over the last year has been also to make up for things that have we've lost in the last year.

You know, like our business has shifted, so. 

Eli Kulp: [00:05:28] Everybody thinks that, you know, once you have three restaurants or four restaurants or, you know, you're just, you're rolling in the dough reality of small businesses that, you know, that doesn't happen, especially in ours for 

Heather Thomason: [00:05:42] years. No. And like, you know, it's, we all talk about all the great stuff that happens to us.

Like, you know, not that we don't talk about the bad things, but, uh, we don't focus on them. So, so from the outside, everybody sees all the successes and we've had, we have a lot to be, I will say that, like, I have an amazing team. We've worked really hard this year to keep everyone safe and to keep the business like growing and evolving.

And we have a lot to be proud of. Um, but you know, there's been a lot of challenges too. So it's just kind of wild because I think in any other time, in any other year, if I had worked and I work on all the time, but if I hadn't worked as hard as I did this year, because it was like physically and mentally, you know, a really grueling year for everyone, you know, it probably would have equated to more.

Measurable growth, like in terms of, you know, profit and, and just, you know, things like that or revenue. Um, and instead it's like, we're, we're kind of like for all those measurable things, we're in the same spot that we were in last year, but in a really different way. So, you know, unfortunately restaurants have suffered incredibly through the pandemic and I started primal supply waiting on a wholesale business and we lost that business this year.

And I'm, I'm, you know, rooting for and, and starting to feel the beginnings of it coming back when, what we did to deal with that, you know, was that we, um, we, our retail business in our traditional brick and mortar models, we're able to serve the communities and they grew. And we also launched an online store, which was a new part of our business and that's grown.

So, you know, like I said, like we've, we've kind of dug in and we've invested in, we've done all this new stuff. Um, but it hasn't kind of all come back together yet to equate to that external growth. 

Eli Kulp: [00:07:17] So things I've noticed because of COVID and you know, everybody's trying to, you know, everybody has to look after every penny that either comes in the house or, you know, or get sold is that unfortunately, a lot of people have had to kind of go away of using, you know, higher quality products or the ones that they really want to use, that they just can't afford, or that, you know, the, the customer base isn't going to sort of pay for it.

It's been this really weird balance of. You know, trying to create a menu that is stripped down, that you're not dealing with too much labor. And then also, you know, somebody that you're able to get, you're able to attain a larger profit margin on. And I don't know if you've felt that. Um, and I'm glad to hear that, you know, your, your businesses is going to be are, feels like it's sort of coming out of it.

Have you noticed anything like that? 

Heather Thomason: [00:08:18] Yeah. I mean, it's like the eternal, you know, food and labor, labor costs, battle that everyone plays. Right. And, uh, I mean, I've always felt that because I've, I've, you know, my model from day one has been committed to this idea that traceable, local sourcing, um, whole animals and all of those inputs lead to this, the end cost of the product is higher.

Right. And I forever have had these incredibly respectful relationships with chefs around town that are like, damn header. Like, I love your product, but like, I just can't, it just work. My food costs, you know? And even my customers, my retail customers, people who walk into the shop, like there's. There's forever, this like kind of squeeze between like how much, what do we need to make and what is the market market threshold of what people pay and like kind of how much can we protect in the middle?

And it's just never enough. And thankfully that doesn't really affect me in retail so much. And that's been sort of the focus of the business over the past year. And our restaurant business has just really gone away. So I actually haven't really had, you know, sadly my restaurants, most of them, especially when they're like tighter restrictions, went back into place through the holiday season.

A lot of them shut down. So now they're reopening and they're reevaluate and, you know, everyone's hoping for some kind of positive shifts and movement forward in the industry that I hope will, will affect some of those things. But yeah, I mean, at this, at this time, I am like, you know, sort of the most empathetic and accommodating partner.

I'm just kind of like, you know, do what you can and we'll, we'll work our way back to that, which is a bummer. But, um, but yeah, 

Eli Kulp: [00:09:41] they have, you know, that collaborative sort of mentality when you come from, you know, go through things like this because, you know, everybody has to kind of do what they have to, to get by and then get to the other side.

Heather Thomason: [00:09:53] I will say that like I am, I am really grateful and it's like, it's not from lack of, of work, but my business was like, um, we, we always have this kind of foot in the sort of hospitality restaurant industry, because we're a purveyor, but ultimately, you know, I'm like, I'm a sourcing logistics supply company.

And, and we ha we have this other arm that was direct to consumer retail, which is essentially grocery. And that never became more clear to me until we hit a pandemic. And like I had a business that was basically able to fracture into two and like one side kind of died and one side thrived. And thankfully it worked out to a balance to us because it turns out that like the grocery industry is somewhat pandemic proof because we're an essential business and people need food.

And especially when restaurants and food service shut down, they're cooking and eating at home more than ever. So they need us more than ever. And that's been just kind of an interesting revelation about who we are that I guess. We always were, and it's not like, I didn't know that, but it never was like, it's like it got written on the wall for me.

So that's been kind of interesting. And then the other thing that I'm feeling now, since you asked, you know, we're, we're one year in and we all went through that like insane first couple of months of the pandemic where nobody knew what the hell was going on or what it was going to meet or how long it was going to last.

And then everybody's settled into whatever their summer version of, okay. Like, can we, can restaurants do take out or outdoor models? And, you know, after the insane, like we were, we were making up for empty grocery store shelves and then people stopped being scared to go to the grocery store and. You know, our business, our retail business kind of leveled off to something more manageable.

It felt fine. And then, and then it's like, before, you know what, I was rolling into the holiday season, which is a really important, you know, for all of us in the food industry, that fourth quarter is like where we, where we have the chance to make our profit for the year. Right. It's like, you kind of try to hold it all year and then that's where you make your money.

And hopefully like you see the dollars bottom line, right. So that was, it's the same thing for us. You know, it's like meat hall, it starts at Thanksgiving and then it's like a Tanika it's Christmas with new year's it's nonstop. And we had to learn how to do that in a whole new model. Like we never had an online system before we never had pre-order.

We didn't know what it would mean to limit capacity and the physical shops during the holiday season. So it was just really all consuming and. I am grateful that ha that I had a team that kind of trusted me as a leader to keep walking in and being like, Hey everyone, this is we're going to do now because we made a major pivot in the spring, but we never released pivoting.

We've been basically like adapting and evolving since, and they rolled with it and they trusted me. But I will say that January is always kind of a, the time of year for me, sick quickly, where I can kind of like pick my head up from that holiday hole. And like, look up again and look forward again and kind of reset and say like, what are our goals now that we've gotten through this push?

And when I did that this year, I had this kind of, I don't know, moment of clarity where I was like, damn, COVID kind of like stressed and broke our business more than I realized. Like I was so busy just like keeping it going. And, and again, like I am, I'm so grateful that we basically were able to balance.

I mean, we feel, I feel stable right now. And that's, that's a lot to say in this moment, but like, you know, my team is just like, they're exhausted and the kind of constant, like tinkering and evolving of our processes and practices at the end of the day, we still cut and sell meat. But the way we do it has just changed so much that some of the kind of, you know, how important it is when you're, when you're trying to run a business, you're trying to get everybody rowing in the same direction and upholding your standards.

That those systems and processes are so important. And we fuck with them so many times this year that it kind of like. It sort of created a culture where I think my staff felt like it was okay to change, but to keep messing with things. And I was maybe modeling that we would keep changing things. I looked up one day and I was like, okay, you guys, we got to tighten this back up, you know?

And they're, they're all a little bit like they're tired. They've been working through a pandemic or kind of low-level fear. Stress is getting to them. The changes are getting to them. So I'm really like having a moment of kind of rebuilding a little bit and saying like, Hey, can we kind of, can we just, we're going to, nothing's set in stone yet.

We still don't know what's going to happen for the next year, but can we try to get back to some form of like structured standard operation and have everybody feel a little bit less like an overwhelmed by the time by like trying to keep up with what's new and feel good at their jobs again. So I don't, I can't say I'm like doing it, but that's like January 

Eli: [00:14:11] credible.

Eli Kulp: [00:14:12] Yeah. It's all these incredible sort of mini storms that spawn off of COVID at large. It's just. You know, all these little problems that kind of come up, you know, whether it's, you know, imagine, I mean, restaurants, right? They've, they've had to define themselves during COVID and now they're gonna have to redefine themselves coming out

of the old stuff and how much you take. It's kind of what you've learned. And of course there's so many other issues that restaurants face today. Not only just how to get customers food, you know, there are a lot of people are taking this time to look at it and say, you know, what do we want to change?

What we want to keep? You 

Heather Thomason: [00:14:55] know? And I mean, you, like, you know, you've opened restaurants and started businesses and it's like, you try to plan and you try to think ahead as much as you can. But those first few months, you know, there's that thing where constantly people are like coming to you, being like.

Shit. Like how do we do this? And you're just like, Oh, okay. Until we were in this moment, I didn't realize that we need a procedure for that. So now we'll figure it out. And that, that kind of like startup moment is like, it's just a little overwhelming and it's a lot of work for everyone. And like you said, we've been kind of micro doing that all year.

I mean, I shut my butcher shops down last at the end of March. Um, you know, we weren't essential. We were considered an essential grocer. We were allowed to be open, but the physical spaces themselves are just kind of small. And I just, I didn't feel like I was able to safely operate, like, operate with, you know, just feeling safe and that about the situation for both my customers and my staff.

So we've pivoted to this like pickup only model. We literally like lock the door and people would knock on it and we'd hand them a, a bag at the door. And, uh, we finally reopened the shops to walk in business again in September. So they had been closed for a long time. And even like, some of my staff had turned over in that timeframe.

And when we did it, like I had to go in and I had to physically reorganize the spaces and change them a little bit for how customers interact. And I had to go through a reopening and I, I personally wasn't even ready for how much of a reopening it would be. He notes, like you said, like you're getting ready for a new school season and the city is increasing capacity and the restaurants are going to open again.

And it seems like, Oh, we already know how to do this. We'll just like open the doors and we'll do it again. But it's not that simple. 

Eli Kulp: [00:16:29] I wanna, I wanna talk a little bit about, you know, your background kind of giving the listeners a little bit, how you came to be this really sort of trailblazing, whole animal butcher.

Cause your, your path is not, you know, it's not a linear path you've taken, so, you know, where are you from? How'd you grow up? You know, tell me, tell us a little 

Heather Thomason: [00:16:52] bit about that. Sure. When you said trailblazing, I like saw myself in cowboy boots. I like it.

Well, yeah, I'll take, I'll take that descriptor. Uh, yes. I grew up in New Jersey. Um, um, I'm a Jersey girl, uh, and, um, Yeah. I grew up in suburban New Jersey and fun fact about me is that my dad is a, middle-school retired now, middle school principal. And I was principal's daughter thinks about that for a second.

It had those moments, it had its perks. It mostly sucked, you know, it's cool. The education was such a priority of my family. My brother was a teacher socially. It was a little challenge. Think for a few years, I just say that there was a few years where no boy, no boy would ask me out. They were all afraid of my dad.

Not really. I'm like a 13 year olds, you know? Um, but, uh, yeah, also, uh, through my childhood, I was a really serious dancer. Um, that's actually kind of, you know, I did like the little girl thing where my mom took me to dance class and gym gymnastics and all this stuff. And, uh, and dancing was just like something that I clicked with.

And I was really lucky that I had. People around me that encouraged me to take it seriously. So I actually like evolve to the point where by the time that I was in high school, I was, you know, training and performing in a pre-professional ballet company. I like only went to school for half the day. And then I got a train on a train to New York and I was training every day.

I was rehearsing every weekend. I, that was just sort of my like pursuit and passion. And I eventually even went to school. Um, I initially went to college to Alvin Ailey, to train, uh, thinking, you know, on a path to, you know, become a professional dancer. And then I burnt out really? Um, yeah, I just like it.

It was cool. It's like, I was a pretty serious kid, you know, it's like, I was an art student. I was a good student, you know, because my dad was a, my dad was an educator and. I just was like, I was so committed to dance and had a lot going on. I think I slept like four hours a day in high school. I don't really know how I did it.

Um, but yeah, but I did, I did kind of take for granted this thing that like all through my childhood, I had a lot of support around me through this thing. And I still had this like balance that was kind of imposed on me by my parents and everyone that like, I did still have to go to school half the day and that maybe have a social life and some other outlets.

And I lived at home with my family who kind of like kept stuff in check a little bit. Like they made sure I still ate dinner when I came home and did my homework, even if it was at 10 o'clock at night after I got back on the train from New York, or they picked me up from a rehearsal somewhere, 

Eli Kulp: [00:19:13] you would actually go to New York city 

Heather Thomason: [00:19:16] by myself as a teenager were in Jersey.

My parents live in a small town called Mendham. The nearest town that people know is Morristown as in Morristown. So yeah, it was about an hour train ride on New Jersey transit. So. Um, when I was, I think I started doing it, like teachers started taking me and I definitely was doing it before I could drive.

Um, cause in New Jersey you start driving at 17. And now that I think my junior and senior year was like, when people signed forms for me that like I only had to go to classes until noon and then I left and uh, yeah, my parents would pick me up and they dropped me off at the train station and I would hop on a train and I'd be in New York city.

And I there's a school called steps on the upper West side. That was a kind of professional dance studio. So I had classes that I was taking there, certain, um, teachers or choreographers that I was kind of informally training with, or I was also training at schools in New Jersey. So like either someone drove me to a school like 45 minutes from my house for, you know, certain classes or rehearsals or I hopped on a train by myself and he took the subway and walked into this dance studio and I'd be there by three o'clock and I'd take like two or three classes in a row.

Um, you know, so I dance for like, I don't know, three, four or five hours and pull my clothes back on my leotard and take the subway back to Penn station and take a train home. And somebody picked me up at the train station and I would be home in my kitchen at 10 o'clock at night. And like, yeah, I think I'd like eat dinner over the kitchen table.

I did my homework and like pass out at midnight and wake up at whatever time. What do you go to school? And like six o'clock in the morning or something crazy and do it all over again. So.

Eli Kulp: [00:20:58] Everyone part of the quick interruption, we're going to talk to you about one of our sponsors. We're talking about the dry ager. The Drager is a sleek German engineered dry-aging cabinet. That is beautiful and something that you want to use as a showpiece in your restaurant. But besides the beauty, this thing has brains, uh, with a dry agers ability to optimize humidity inside the cabinet, as well as its sterilization, uh, of germs because they're UV filtration system, you're able to get a beautifully aged steak at a higher humidity than traditional dry aging.

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Heather Thomason: [00:22:59] Yeah. I mean, I think a lot, I think my, uh, my, you know, I have one, I have a brother and my parents, um, I think we're all kind of wired that way. Like, I don't know that it was definitely like, it wasn't like, I think some people like their families drive them to do that. You know, they're kind of like, there's an expectation that they're meeting.

It was very personal for me. Like. It was my own personal drive to do it, and I was supported. Um, but yeah, I think it just, it just kind of runs runs in my blood, but yes, it was kind of this thing. Like some people thought like, what are you doing? And you, what happens if you get hurt? This isn't a career.

You shouldn't go to college for it. Why don't you just like study art and go to real college? And then some people thought, no, let's do this. So, yeah, I, I, um, the year I went to college, Alvin Ailey, which is our modern or like international professional dance company in New York city, a modern dance company started this new program with Fordham university where they took 25 students from around the country into this like new program.

Um, that was a conservatory program where we would basically train and dance all day, uh, at the school. And on the side, we'd take like a couple of classes to fill a liberal arts core over the course of four years. Um, so super cool. It was brand new. It was a really big deal in the dance world. And I got one of those spots and I was just like, get the fuck out of my way, everybody.

This is what I'm doing. This is my dream. Um, and I landed there and I was like, I was in college and they reserved dorm space for me, but like I was mixed in with regular college students. And I was trying to just like, keep up this routine where, you know, it's physically exhausting. You're still trying to be as a good student on the side.

And it's just like, kinda that thing where like your everyday you're just trying to go to sleep. So you have the energy to wake up and do it again the next day. And I just, like, I got tired really quickly. And like I said, all those things that I took for granted, like the fact that I did go to school and see my friends for a couple hours a day, and I had parents and guidance counselors around me to kind of help me stay balanced and not like start doing dumb stuff that made me tired or distracted or just, you know, like kind of helped you out of the funk or whatever, like all that was gone.

And I just was like, it took me a few months to have this revelation of what it really meant. Um, I think I logged like 30 hours of training a week in high school. Now I was doing like 40 hours a week, plus two college classes, plus being surrounded by regular, um, you know, students. And there's just like this moment.

It's like, man, if this is this what the next four years of my life looks like, so I hopefully can audition into a professional company. Like, I don't know if I. I'm not a one, I'm not a one track person like that sorta like give up everything else and only do this. So, yeah. So I kind of blew it all up and walked into the arts.

Do 

Eli Kulp: [00:25:27] you consider yourself still a good dancer? Do you ever, do you ever like bust out a pero at the butcher room? 

Heather Thomason: [00:25:34] I mean, let's just, I don't, I, you know, in my twenties, I like definitely, I, I taught dance classes. It was kind of a nice way to make money. Like. You know, I would still, I was still involved and I would still do things like that, but eventually I stopped, you know, and when I was younger, I still kind of went out and partied and danced.

I don't really do that anymore. It's kind of fun. Like every once in a while to be at like a wedding or an event or something, people don't really, this is so long ago now it's been like 20 years since I stopped people don't know that. And you can kind of like kiss the dance floor and surprise them with the fact that like, you got

Eli Kulp: [00:26:06] pull it out when 

Heather Thomason: [00:26:07] necessary. Right. Um, but yeah, that's a that's me. So I just, like, I kinda like walked over to another department and was like, Hey guys, uh, I was an art student. I actually do have like a high school degree and other things like, could I just move over to yours? And they, uh, they let me in and that was cool.

And, but I always kind of figured like, Oh, well I'll definitely like transfer and do other things with my life. Like I was only meant to be here for dance. And over the next six months, I just kind of fell backwards into a graphic design class and met a couple of key other students and some great professors and, uh, Actually I love being in New York city.

Like I, like I said, as I was the teenager on the train by myself, I knew my way around and I was comfortable and I felt at home there. So I just kind of fell into an alternative life in New York. Like my school was on 60th and Columbus and, you know, I went to classes. It was cool that, um, that college, because of where it is tends to have a lot of a working professionals as adjuncts in the department.

So like my teachers were photographers and graphic work and graphic designers who were teaching classes. And that was just very cool. So yeah, I had great mentors and you know, the city lights that I liked and I stayed. So what 

Eli Kulp: [00:27:16] was the catalyst for you to say, okay, I've done well in this career, but I'm done with this one now and I need to change 

Heather Thomason: [00:27:27] graphic design.

Yeah. I, uh, you know, so I studied graphic design. Like I said, I kind of had internships in my last year of college and was very much like, kind of smoothly slowed into a working career. I did, I did do that thing where I was like, what am I doing with my life? And I briefly left New York and moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico on a whim.

And that lasted all of a year and a half. I didn't meet my husband, which is cool, but I did, I came back, but basically for the next decade or so, like, yeah, I worked as a graphic designer. Um, I worked in other people's firms. I kind of moved around a decent amount, like in a good way. Uh, I was a pretty burst style designer.

And what was cool about that was I saw the inside of a lot of other people's businesses, large firms, big agencies, you know, like, what do they do? Well, what do they not do well? And as the independent hardworking hustler that I am, I started building up, uh, freelance clients, which led to me starting my own business, which was kind of like borrow the best of everything I'd seen.

So I started, I officially started my own graphic design business when I was 28. And, um, And I did the, like, you know, it was, uh, it was a small thing. Like it really went from, I was a freelancer. My husband was starting to do web design. It was the time in the world where like people started businesses. And instead of asking me for like stationary and logos, they were starting to ask for a website.

So this kind of organic thing happened where the demand from my clients was shifting to be online. And I brought my husband into some projects. And before you knew it, we had a studio and it was all like, it was all small, you know, now, and as we hit the three year Mark, that was kind of that moment in business where it's like, okay, we're here.

This works. But like now it's time for this to grow. So I was kind of, we had, we had hired a business consultant and I was going through a lot of exercises that year to try to, and sort of like B did this establish it more like, it's like, you know, this informal startup business plan, isn't going to take us much farther.

Like, what are our goals for clients? And, you know, are we hiring employees? Are we keeping it small, all this stuff. And I think that year, like, as I was a value, I was trying to, you know, look forward to the future of the business. I started to be like, wait a second. Like I'm making five-year plans, but I want to be doing this in five years.

And to be totally honest, I love my husband. Um, we are a really good creative team. Like we, you know, it's like one of the things that we liked about each other when we met that, uh, we're both creative people. And when we get together on something it's fun, you know, to that thing where you're like, you're connecting and you're excited and you're bouncing ideas.

So in those moments, we make a great team running a business is really hard. And especially running a business with your spouse is really hard because we all try to like have balance and work-life divide will like, as a tiny little graph design studio, it's basically us and a couple of employees. We just like rode the wave of everything that happened.

So like, you know, when, when a project wasn't going well, um, and sometimes it was outside, it was like a client was being really difficult or we were just really struggling with the process and we were falling behind on a deadline. Or like, we weren't in agreement about the direction of something. Like we just took all that shit home and we used to joke, like, it was funny at first and then it got old and it was like, Oh man, like, all we do is talk about work.

We live together. We have a social life together. We work together. When we go on vacation, we literally have nothing to talk about for the first day or two until we start doing other stuff. Cause like we're not talking about work. So, so yeah. So I mean, like with you asking me this question, I'm realizing like definitely a component of that.

And I forget that this was a piece, but it was cause I was also like, man, do I really want to like keep my. Really happy, healthy relationship tied to my work life forever because like, we're fine now, but like five years from now, like, am I going to find myself having to choose between my husband being my husband or my business partner?

And I kind of like, I think I sort of made a proactive choice to be like, I think I'd like to be married and be life partners. And maybe we should kind of go our own way with business. And, uh, then we can ask each other like, Hey honey, how was your day 

Eli Kulp: [00:31:21] knowing what you had for lunch 

Heather Thomason: [00:31:22] and everything. But yeah, it's like, I don't know.

I guess we didn't have like a 28 year old. No, I guess it was a 31 year old midlife crisis crisis. A little bit where I was like, damn, do I want to, I don't wanna keep doing this. I don't know. So yeah, I just, I think I just was like, I didn't hate it. I was just looking forward and starting to be like this future head.

They're going to be happy. Oh, 

Eli Kulp: [00:31:40] that's smart. I mean, you know, it sounds like, you know, as I'm listening to you that you've had opportunities and you've, you've made decisions independently and saying. No, this is what I want to do. And this is if I don't want to do it sounds like when you came to that point, you know, what were your options at that point?

Like, what were you, what were you like? What got you from chasm between not wanting to work in your husband and graphic design anymore and say, Hey, I want to like learn about animal husbandry. And 

Heather Thomason: [00:32:19] it was definitely not like a, Oh, I know what I'll do. You know, it was not a direct path. And I mean, also there, there was other stuff involved.

I mean, I was also just like, you know, I'm sitting all the time. I was staring at computers, you know, it's like my eyes and my back was starting to hurt and the client deadlines and the pressure from their priorities being more important than ours, like all that. Right. And this wasn't like some sort of overnight thing, like these were.

I was happily working in my design business and my life was going just fine, but I was kind of, you know, asked, I guess, asking these like bigger questions sort of in the background or subconscious, or maybe, maybe sometimes actually speaking them out loud and having conversations with Brad. But yeah, it was really more of like a year of me working through this process and starting to kind of like get comfortable in my own head.

Maybe say it out loud and then have us start talking about what that would mean. And I didn't even, I didn't even know what I do simultaneously, you know? Um, my life in I've, I've always loved food. Like I just, I'm just that person that like, uh, some of us are just wired that way, you know, it's like, you're just always thinking about the next meal.

Like nobody taught me that. I just, like, since I was a kid, that's always been my personality. And as I got older and I started making my own choices about food and cooking and stuff, like I always just inherently cared a lot about where it came from. So. So basically, you know, all, all through my twenties while we lived in New York and I worked as a graphic designer, like I was very involved in my local food community.

I shopped shop locally. I joined our co-op. I went to the farmer's market every weekend and all this stuff. So I was, it was just my personal interest. I wouldn't even call it a hobby. It was just kind of like when I wasn't working, like my long ass day for me, it's like, if I come home, no matter how tired I am, I go, I walk into my kitchen, I pull some stuff out of the refrigerator.

I start making dinner. And for the next 30 minutes, like, it's my own kind of like Zen meditation thing. Like I just, I switched off like, cause I just started thinking about that and I forgot about everything else. And that was always a thing, you know? Um, so yeah, so, so through this time, all of that was just starting to be woven into my life so much, you know, like I had friends over every weekend for dinner parties, like mainly just because I wanted an excuse to cook like more food than what the two of us could eat or because I went to the, to the co-op or the farmer's market.

And I got too excited of all the ingredients that were there and.

Where were you living in New York? I lived in park slope actually for the last I like we lived in park slope for about seven years Plaza to the park slope food co-op it was two blocks from my house. I would've had to walk past it like to go to a worst grocery store. Um, we went to the grand, I would pause a farmer's market every Saturday.

I also like would join CSA is just out of like farm commitment. And then I wouldn't be able to control myself at the farmer's market. So we'd have like two households worth of produce to cook through every week. 

Eli Kulp: [00:35:02] Like, yeah, I lived, I lived on the other side of park slope, prospect. 

Heather Thomason: [00:35:12] I think they'd probably call them all different things.

Eli Kulp: [00:35:15] Familiar with that. 

Heather Thomason: [00:35:17] It's such a good market. Like, you know, I know, I know union square is like the New York city market, but to me, like grand army Plaza is the smaller, more intimate like neighborhood version of that. But you still have all the best vendors. 

Eli: [00:35:28] Absolutely. 

Eli Kulp: [00:35:29] I'm sure it's even harder now 

Eli: [00:35:30] than it was back 

Heather Thomason: [00:35:31] in the day.

I can only imagine. I mean, I haven't lived in New York since, uh, 2012. Uh, so I, I go visit 

Eli Kulp: [00:35:39] directly. 

Heather Thomason: [00:35:40] No, I went, well, I, I left, I left the, we went to Berkeley Oakland. I worked in Berkeley, lived in Oakland. That's 

Eli: [00:35:47] right. 

Eli Kulp: [00:35:47] So, so this is this connect, the dots here. So, um, at that point, you, you found yourself, 

Heather Thomason: [00:35:57] I can give you the long story.

Short is like kind of, you know, this, this world that I'm in, I start meeting and befriending more producers. I learn more about farming about. The meat that I'm so interested in, like how weird and challenging and broken it is for these farmers to get it from the field to the frozen cooler at the farmer's market.

Eli: [00:36:14] Got 

Eli Kulp: [00:36:14] it. It's hard. Especially with EA 

Heather Thomason: [00:36:20] the regulations are for large producers and there's no support for small producers and it's really broken. So, you know, so I learned all of this and it just, like I said, that time in my life where I was kinda like, you know, lightly soul searching corny expression, but I don't know what else to call it.

Um, and discovering all these other things, like at a certain point, it did kind of click for me where I saw all this other stuff happening in my, in my food life and thought, you know what? Like this is kind of cool. I think I like thought it in my head for a long time before I was ready to brave enough to say it out loud, but it's like, Maybe if I learned butchery, because meat is just the most, it's like, it's the most broken, it's the most like interesting.

It's the one that needs the most fixing. And I watched glaciers open that shop in park slope and saw the like response that the need that it filled. And that, I think that was like the moment one day I was walking by it when it was still fairly new. And I did have kind of a brief aha moment of like Sam, you know what, like maybe if I could learn what they do, uh, I could, I could somehow kind of participate and do this.

So yeah, that was my, you know, I got brave enough to say it out loud first. And like my husband and a friend while we were having dinner one night and they looked at me like I was crazy, but they knew me enough to be like, that's, that's nuts, but like, what are you thinking? And by the time. Like vomited for an hour, all the thoughts in my mind, they were like, okay, crazy.

But I guess, you know, so yeah, so I, like, I basically over the next year, like said to my husband, like, Hey look, like if I could find an apprenticeship, maybe we'll just kind of like shift the project load a little bit more to you and I could free up a day or two and do this thing. And that's, that's kind of how it started.

Um, it wasn't, it didn't work out that way. I couldn't, I couldn't find some sort of like, part-time learning experience. These, I wasn't coming from a culinary background. There wasn't anybody that took me seriously. Uh, so instead I found a farmer, uh, in Pennsylvania through a Kickstarter campaign and just sort of seemed like they were doing all these things that I was fascinated by.

And I was like, well, maybe I could work with them. They had, they had a meat CSA, they were harvesting their own poultry. So they were doing some on-farm butchery and they were raising pastures, livestock, uh, North mountain pastures there out in Newport, Pennsylvania. Uh, Brooks Miller is the farmer. He's like, he's very involved in our local, you know, he's, I think he might even be on the board of Pasa at this point.

Yeah. He's, you know, he's done a lot in our regional community for, for pasture-based livestock, but, uh, yeah, I, I like reached out and was like, Hey man, I'm trying to do this thing and I want to learn. And do you ever take apprentices? And he was like, yeah, I wrote him a really long passionate letter. That's the summary.

And he wrote me back amongst later, like, Hey, sorry to get back to you sooner. A skid loader broke farm problems, broken fences, whatever, but I love your letter. Like, do you want to come visit? So I drove three hours from park slope to Newport, Pennsylvania, and I spent the day with him and his family. And, you know, we just realized that we had a lot in common.

We were kind of the same age and. He really got where I was coming from and they did actually need another apprentice for the season. So I did a really crazy thing. And I went, by the time I drove home, I had made up my mind because my husband thankfully like understands me enough to let me do this. But I was like, Hey, so what if I like took the car and I moved to this farm, I could take my laptop and probably helped you a little bit from there.

But like, I gotta be there April 1st. And I got to commit to Thanksgiving and they said, I can come home one month, one weekend, a month. And he was like, what?

So I did that. And, uh, it was really important and I learned a ton. And, uh, and because of that, I was able then to start to build some relationships and have some people who were doing whole animal butchery start to take me seriously. So that led to me pursuing an apprenticeship with the local butcher shop in Berkeley.

So I then dragged my husband completely out of New York city. Like we, I convinced him to give up our lives and move to the Bay area. Which is wild. Uh, but his sister did live there and we were visiting often and we always had the, like, what if we lived in California? No, it was, I mean, do you want to talk about farmer's markets for one for a year and a half of my life?

I did live in Nirvana. It is so cool to go to the farmers. First of all, we landed in February and like to go to the market and there's fruit and it's not cold storage apples. Like, you know, there's like all these varieties of citrus and there is not just half avocados, there's five other varieties of avocados.

And there's a guy who sells beats and there's like six different varieties of those. And I didn't even know. And like strawberries start in March and they roll from like South of the Bay area to North. And even again, like, it's not just, it's different bridles and they, you see them for months. And it was just, I 

Eli Kulp: [00:40:46] always get so jealous because right around this time, February, March, you know, West coast chefs are starting to post their, their photos of their, you know, the first piece sugar snap peas.

And, you know, the first, uh, you know, spring, spring, vegetables, strawberries, and all that. So as long as like,

Too easy. Like, like it's like, there's not even like, 

Eli: [00:41:10] you don't have to suffer. 

Heather Thomason: [00:41:13] I remember like, there's this moment when I got there and, uh, the owner of a local, one of the owners, the local butcher shop, they're a married couple Monica. Um, I had like said something to her about how I really wanted it to hydrator.

You know, it was like, I can't, I've been meaning to go to the hydrator forever. And she's like, why? And I was like, you know, so I can like preserve and save things. And she was just like, why would you do that? Because she's grew up in California. And she's like, we always have stuff. Like, there is no off season.

East coast brain did not get it, you know? Um, so anyway, so yeah, so dry that season ended in November. I think I came home, literally slept for like a month because I was so tired from farming. And then we packed up and we moved to California and, um, I apprenticed, I eventually joined the team as a butcher, stayed there for a while.

I was there for about a year and a half total and I had met, uh, people who were involved with Kenton new quarters. Through some other sort of food network, uh, food friends, and they were planning to open this retail butcher shop within a restaurant and they didn't have a plan to staff. It, like there just, weren't trained whole animal butchers, you know, in, in Philadelphia, there's a rich history of butchers in the city, but you know, they're old and they're all in the Italian market and they're not focused on local anymore.

So I got an opportunity. I'd kind of like plateaued a little bit at the local butcher shop. You know, it's like I was still progressing, but you know, you can only jump so many stations so quickly. So the reality of me, you know, at this point, I'm like, I'm in my thirties and you know, I'm really serious. And this is not just like, you know, they asked me for a three-day apprenticeship and I was like, yo, can I come five days a week?

I'm only doing this once. And it was supposed to be for three months. And I basically showed up five days a week for five months until a position opened, you know? Um, and then I stayed on for most of a year and at a certain point it's like, okay, I do have business experience. I would like to be moving towards a management role and there just wasn't going to be one.

Um, so when I got offered this opportunity to move to Philly and become the butcher shop manager at Ken's and in quarters, um, it just was like, it really aligned with my goals and my family. I was also feeling like a little bit like California was amazing, but my family is here. My brother was starting to have kids.

My husband's family is kind of scattered around. That was a little homesick. Um, I'm an East coast girl. I kept finding myself like befriending, like dark haired, fast talking women in California. And then it'd be like, Oh, you're from the East coast. That's why I get you. You're not.

Eli Kulp: [00:43:35] Afraid to speak with other minds. 

Eli: [00:43:37] I 

Heather Thomason: [00:43:37] don't mean to by drop the occasional F bomb and I talk fast, you know,

Eli Kulp: [00:43:45] and you kind of subtly, would it be right? 

Heather Thomason: [00:43:49] So, uh, but yeah, so Kensington quarters was a super cool project and it was just sort of like the right step for me and my career. And actually didn't have a relationship with Philly. Like I grew up in North Jersey and New York, New York city was my city, but it was close enough to home and I visited a couple times and.

I was like remotely kind of starting to get involved in the planning of that project from California. And it just, it was everything I wanted to do. So I convinced my husband, once again, I like, I dragged him out of Brooklyn at California. He hated that we were leaving our life, that we were really rooted in for like a decade.

And then he loved California. Like my parents still call them California, Brad, because he just was like so comfortable 

Eli: [00:44:25] in there, like forever wearing Ray-Bans. 

Heather Thomason: [00:44:27] And I was like, dude, so you want to move back to the East coast and he's like, you gotta be kidding me, but, okay. Um, so I mean, we moved to a city where we didn't know anybody for me to take this work opportunity, but yeah.

You know, I went through, yeah, I got here as soon as I could, after a few months of planning, I was supposed to miss the opening, but you know how that goes? I was four months ahead of opening. Yeah. So, yeah, so we opened that shop and I worked through all that stuff. And you know, that was when I always knew about it because of like my, the farming and the reason why I came to all this in the first place.

But like. Managing talking to people about supply chains and sourcing is one thing actually managing it is another thing. So, you know, like when you're, when the problems are your problems to solve. So my time there besides kind of like honing in and sort of like I was, I guess I was like a fully trained butcher at that point, but you know, the, the amount of work that I put in in the time that I was in that shop really just kind of perfected and finished, you know, my craft and I was training other people, you know, that kind of does a lot for you.

Um, and yeah, and then just like the operation side, it's like, I was in charge of stuff and I was having to deal with like, what, what happened when things went wrong? I learned for the first time, like the hard way about what it means when a beef is over 30 months old and the USDA tags it, and you can't have it with the spine intact, uh, because of federal regulations.

And like when I'm bringing in whole animals on a rail and they won't let me have it, like, what does that mean? So, I mean, that's just like a random yeah.

Eli Kulp: [00:45:53] Rules and laws and, you know, things are, they're there to protect. Um, you know, the, the large, the large ag industry as 

Heather Thomason: [00:46:02] a whole, I still antiquated. I mean, it's like these regulations got put in place so long ago and, uh, and they just really haven't evolved. And, you know, I w I wish we could get to some kind of like two tier system that would be cool, but, you know, we're released, you know, there's a lot of, uh, people really want things to be released back to state, uh, regulation rather than federal.

So that's a whole nother conversation. I'll tell 

Eli Kulp: [00:46:25] you what, he goes deep pretty quickly. 

Heather Thomason: [00:46:30] Right. Our timelines are like, uh, w when did you, when did you come to Philadelphia? Wow. Okay. So I was only a couple of years behind you. I think I arrived at, I arrived in 2014. Okay. 

Eli Kulp: [00:46:43] I remember at the opening of considering quarters.

So I think I was already down here for a 

Eli: [00:46:47] little bit.

Eli Kulp: [00:46:52] You know, the cooks of the sous chefs we started talking about, I think by the time you did primal supply, I was a lot, I was spending a lot of time up in New York and. What you were doing? 

Heather Thomason: [00:47:06] Um, you know, I S when I started primal and you, and I didn't know each other, like I knew who you were, but, um, I didn't know, Ellen, and, you know, she's always been, you know, Ellen's really amazing and really just kind of.

She's an incredibly supportive person, but really tries to support other women, which is very cool. And, uh, and I knew, I knew Teddy from CloudShare who was doing that market and as Kensington quarters, uh, you guys had actually like,

you guys had invited me to do to be like a guest purveyor at that farmer's market. And meanwhile, you know, I was like, you know, tens and in quarters, basically my time there, not only did I kind of, you know, sort of firm up my, my knowledge of whole animal butchery, but like I said, I got really invested in all the supply chain work.

And essentially what happened there is like, I discovered that this work that I was doing was, was needed for so much more than this one butcher shop and restaurant. And my idea to start primal supply was like, Hey, let me re leverage these resources, these relationships that I'm building and do something to serve the city.

Like it's, you know, it's just like this can scale. There's room on the trucks. There's more animals on the farms. Like there's no reason why, if I'm moving one beef, I can't move three. So I spent, you know, a couple of months sort of honing in and in this business plan. And then I finally, you know, sort of approached the owner of Kenton and quarters and said like, Hey, I, you know, I really, I think I got to start this thing, like, and I gave him, you know, I said, it's going to be a few months.

I'm just being honest. Like, I, uh, I want to set you guys up. Like, I want to like, basically like leave everything that I've set up behind and maybe, and I'd also love for you to be a customer. So it's like, you know, and you guys want to do your own sourcing. I'm going to make sure that you're set up to do that.

If I can source for, from you as primal supply, we'll do that. So I had this kind of few months transition of getting ready to sort of set them up while behind the scenes. I was planning, primal and getting ready to kind of take a step into that. But I approached Ellen. Uh, and said, Hey, you know, I'm starting this, this thing.

And if you guys are going to do that market this year, I think it would be really cool if I could, if I could be a vendor and like primal supply could come and sell, like meat and eggs and sausages and. You know, I, I remember just being like so nervous to approach her, like it was this thing and I hadn't told that many people about it and which take me seriously when they want me.

And I can still remember her being like the way that she is, like, she's such a straight shooter and it catches you off guard sometimes that she was just like, well, Heather, I mean, of course, like, you know, I know, I know you, like, I know what your goals are here. And that of course suits the markets. Why wouldn't we have, you know, it's like, you're like huge, you know, and John Patterson was the chef there at the time, you know?

And she was like, well, are you going to sell to restaurants? Would you like me to set up a meeting with chef? Like let's have that conversation. Yeah.

She was actually kind of instrumental in being just one of those people. Like it was a small thing for us to be that market. But as someone who is starting a new project and really going out on a limb and wondering, like, I fought that people wanted this thing I was going to do, I thought it would serve a need, but you do need those first couple of people who, when you ask them.

You know, the handful of chefs that I said, like, if I did this, like, do you think you'd want to source this product? Would this serve you? And the ones that really matter are the first couple that say yes, you know, so for Ellen to kind of like endorse what I was doing and bite me into that market. But I remember that that summer that I like it was, everyone was like ghosts.

They were all just like disappearing to New York.

Yeah. So, so I started prime now, what? 

Eli: [00:50:32] Yeah. 

Eli Kulp: [00:50:33] So, I mean, let's talk about primal, like, you know, that was sort of the origin story of kind of where you got it, but you know, some of the products you sell and you know, more specifically the sustainability behind it, you know, the regenerative agriculture, that's, that's really happening right now, Katie, more and more momentum.

What does it tell people out there? Like the beef you sell? For example, because beef is a, you know, it's a sort of double edged sword these days. Because, you know, for example, I have cut down on my red meat personally, because I don't want to support, you know, the grain fed, you know, the, the big ag meat companies out there.

I want to put my money where I do eat it, that I get it from, you know, from what you guys or, you know, from, you know, like mom's organic, that supplies, you know, decent, decent product. So kind of just talk everybody through that process of, you know, what makes your product different. 

Heather Thomason: [00:51:33] Yeah. So, I mean, that is our, you know, the mission of primal, you know, the business model is about this like supply chain and sorcery really, you know, of course we cut and sell meat at the end of the day, but really, you know, the focus on really suring up how it, how it gets.

From the farm for the people. But, um, our mission is really a commitment to supporting a local farmers and bee farmers who are committed to pasture-based livestock so that they are, they are committed to sustainable regenerative land practices. And people ask me a lot about beef and like, what about beeps impact on the environment?

And it's like, we are, we are not talking about the same beef animals, uh, you know, a high volume of animals concentrated in feedlots where like, you know, just the, the collective volume of their manure is actually toxic, you know? And that like the, the imbalance of like inputs and outputs where it's like, they're literally taking more out of the land and they're putting back in or they're, you know, releasing more negative things into the environment then that's, that's not what we do.

Um, in these pasture-based systems where you have. A responsible number of animals for the land that they're on. You know, that there's, that resource is enough for them, uh, for it to be imbalanced. That's, that's one thing. And when we talk about regenerative agriculture, it's like, I talk about this a lot in classes.

And I think, um, you can relate it a little bit to vegetables with this idea. You know, if anybody who's familiar with produce or vegetable growing, like the difference between people who are monocropping and you know, it's like, they're just planting the same thing over and over and over again, every single time that you grow, you're taking, you're using nutrients and resources in the soil to grow that vegetable, you remove the vegetable, you eat it well, what did you put back in?

Right? Nothing. So you're just depleting it over time. So anybody who is like, you know, they're rotating or their cover cropping, or they're doing things where like, for everything you take away, you put something back in and. So we need to do the same thing with animals, right? And the idea that rotational grazing and responsible pasture management, where the amount of animals on a land, isn't too much for them to support it is regenerative in the sense that, uh, that they actually put something back in.

So if you, and the same thing, you know, it's like you just, if you just run, if you have a ton of animals, On a section of pasture and all they do is like graze it down and stand there and shit on it. Like they just they're there. They're not, there's nothing left at a certain point. Right? These farmers, what they do is that instead of these animals sure.

They graze, but they only graze, you know, the graves to a certain point. And then the farmer moves them to the next spot. And so it's like they graze the grass, they eat some seed in the process. Um, they did, you know, we behind manure, which is like receding and fertilizing. Um, they kind of lightly stomped around and basically like naturally irrigate the land and then they move off of it.

And then they moved to a new section and they do that then there, and in the time that they're not on the section of land, that they just utilized all of the work that they did to seed it, fertilize it, turn it over, it grows back. And it grows back better than it was before. Um, you know, even like the naturally perennial grasses that exist, the animals are going to select for the ones that are the most nutritious and beneficial for them.

Like they're not going to eat the ones that are toxic. So they're even kind of like slowly over time, the perennial grasses will become a more beneficial mix for the animals. And a lot of farmers talk about top soil, you know, top soil is basically that kind of like that top layer of soil where all those nutrients are stored.

That's that's, um, you know, it's like what, what your resource is, and you can either deplete that soil, or you can replace top soil. And it's the coolest thing to watch a livestock farmer who has been practicing rotational grazing, and they'd been responsibly moving their animals throughout pasture and using them as sort of a tool to fertilize and, and grow, grow grass and build up top soil.

And I will watch people like reach down and stick their hands in a black dirt and say like, look like we have two inches more of this than we did last year. Um, you know, that's, that's what appropriately managed livestock can do for land. And that's, you know, it's, it's restorative, it's regenerative. It's like we're actually using them to improve the land and leave it better than we, than we found it.

Um, you know, and then it's like carbon sequestration. Like I was 

Eli Kulp: [00:55:48] just going to say about, talk about that because for, you know, people out there that haven't maybe this, this information hasn't gotten to the, you know, the ability for, you know, the earth to take care of itself and the action of the cows disrupting the, you know, the, um, the soil and the grass is being able to grow naturally, you know, soon after they, they move on to the next, you.

Pasture area, you know, the, the carbon sequestering that comes from the photosynthesis, you know, of these, of these long, tall grasses, you know, versus a field that is mowed down. There's no root system because the grasses are continually just eaten down to essentially the, you know, the STEM where this type of grazing just allows for that constant natural process of bringing carbon, which once was inside the earth.

But humans have, have raped bureaus for so many years of coal or fossil fuels and, you know, able to bring that, bring those, that carbon back into the ground where it's supposed to be like, carbon is not a bad thing. It's just sound good in the air. So, you know, it's a beautiful process that has gained a lot of momentum.

And something that I've, I've really enjoyed learning a lot about in the past year or so. And I can't stress this enough that, you know, people going to the store, whether it's specials or meat, being able to support stores or farmer's markets, or, you know, the farmers themselves and saying, okay, I'm going to either buy directly from you because you are regenerative and you know, or I'm going to not eat that.

Cause I can't find it. I just purchased, I haven't even got to yet, uh, from a wild idea of Buffalo, Wyoming, the same thing they do, the rotational grazing both with Buffalo, they've put Buffalo, they realize they actually realized that they had cows on the land and the cows just weren't doing well. And they realized that for millions of years, these Buffalo craze and you know, the way that they roam and stomped and, and all that, like.

It was actually important for them to figure it out, actually raise Buffalo there. And they said that they had flourished in the, you know, in the earth and the earth is responded to

Eli: [00:58:19] yeah. 

Eli Kulp: [00:58:20] Everybody. We're gonna take a quick break. I got Amelia minutia right here in the studio with me. We're talking about their brand new store opening in Wayne and this coming month, Emilio, how this things, this thing sounds like a dream. What are people going to expect when they go and see this new store?

Heather Thomason: [00:58:36] It is, it's an evolution and a dream. My, my cousin is our visionary and he wanted to do not just our typical retail, you know it, but. There'll be a lot of action stations, a lot of areas where you will get sensory overload. So like picture going into a European market hall with individual stands where like in the front of the store, when you walk in as our element Tyree section, our wine bar where we'll have plates and want like really great organic and natural wine.

So we'll pour by the glass and great cheeses top of charcuterie. But then the back of the store is our Cucina section where you see the chef and the Roman pizza oven, and it'll be preparing different foods. We've got an open kitchen there. And so you could sit at either of those areas and Eden, and it gets served wine and craft.

Beers and cocktails, or you could take it out with you. There's also our prepared foods section, but we have a rotisserie section with our paninis and sandwiches. Everything using are the great ingredients that we source from all over the world. And the U S and of course the heart of what we do between those two areas is going to be our cheese and charcuterie resection with house-made Pat tase and charcuterie.

It's going 

Eli Kulp: [00:59:49] to be, it sounds like it's a destination place it's built 

Heather Thomason: [00:59:54] to really excite the senses and the, get your mind thinking about utilizing really cool, different, unique ingredients. And we're going to show 

Eli Kulp: [01:00:03] you how to use it. This is the type of store where you go in to buy one thing and you leave at 20.

Heather Thomason: [01:00:07] Yeah, let listen, don't go in with the expectation of getting one thing. That's where you're going to set 

Eli Kulp: [01:00:13] yourself up for failure. So with the opening, what can people expect to get in there? So we're 

Heather Thomason: [01:00:17] going to solve open on the 9th of March and another 12th would be the grand opening and we'll would just be kicking it off from then on right through the summer, having fun, doing some really cool stuff all year 

Eli Kulp: [01:00:27] long.

Awesome. Everybody. So again, check out their website  dot com and you can find out all the information every out in the main line is listening. You're in for a real treat. Yeah, it'll be fun. All right, everybody back to the show,

Heather Thomason: [01:00:45] think one of the coolest things is that. The farmers that I work with and, you know, the farmers that work like the ones that I do, they don't call themselves livestock farmers. They call themselves grass farmers, because their job is actually to farm the land. And the livestock is really a tool for doing that.

You know, they, they don't consider themselves growing meat. They think we're growing grass. We're growing, you know, we're, we're building soil and it's like, the meat is kind of like a tool and a by-product. And that's just like, I think that mentality to get into that is, is just like, it's a really different perspective.

And if you can grasp that, I think it starts to make some of the stuff was the idea 

Eli Kulp: [01:01:20] of being stewards of the land. And I think what people have realized, and I know, I hope it's not too late, that in this goes to producers and farmers and you know, whether it's historically, um, this historic areas where there are these areas where they're historically, you know, have been doing monocropping since.

You know, the early 1918, there was it since the early 20th century and, you know, been able to essentially make the Midwest a desert and, you know, having to purchase man-made fertilizers, manmade inputs to actually make the soil be able to even have enough nitrogen to grow something. And of course it's big business and we can go down that the pole as well, you know, but people are waking up to it.

Heather Thomason: [01:02:21] Like what was one of the most fertile valleys in North America is just totally depleted. I mean, every, you know, it's depleted of every nutrient it's depleted of water. Um, the salinity in the soil is unhealthy. I mean, it's like, we've really just turned things out of balance. And you know, also, you know, GMOs are thing to think about too.

And. That's something in our sourcing practices. So besides, um, the fact that the animals for, for us to work with the farmer and at this point, you know, I have these long lasting relationships with farmers. So I don't even really think about my sourcing protocols that much, because they're just so much like, yeah.

But, um, we also, besides the fact that the animals need to have constant access to pasture, you know, they need to basically be eating their natural diet and they need to be behaving and active in the way that they're supposed to be. So roaming rooting, grazing, um, no grain for the cattle because it's not, I care about digestability.

Um, and the other thing is that we also, for the animals that don't eat grass. So the pigs and chickens are our lamb and goat is also all a hundred percent grass fed. So for me, all the ruminants. I believe in a grass fed model, because I do think that that's what those animals are, are built to digest. I do allow for my farmers to raise, um, grains as grasses and that's part of my sourcing protocol because we actually care a lot about the, um, nutrition and the sort of the balance in the grasses.

So like they don't just graze, you know, she just like, if you just put a cow out on grass and say like, Hey buddy, like your left ear and advices devices and moods and whatever, and like graze, they're not gonna naturally fattened themselves up and gain. I mean, we are trying to produce an ideal and consistent product.

I mean, um, so we always, for me, year round, I make forage available to them and forage can be just straight up hay or it can be hay in the form of like baleage, uh, haylage stylish, basically fermented fermented hay, right? It's all grass. And the being able to have this available to them year round is a free choice.

Diet means that. And seasons we're in the Northeast. We don't have pasture for, you know, year round. So in seasons, when pasture is available to them, they will selectively probably most of their diet will be composed of the grass that they go out and graze off of. But, you know, maybe they'll wander back into the open air barn that they have, like, you know, free choice access to be in shelter or not, and have some snacks, um, and eat some of this, you know, signage that's available to them because it's, it's delicious, but it's also dense, nutritious, and that kind of keeps them gaining.

And that's how I'm able to finish beautiful marbled grass fed beef year round. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like fermented food is better for us, right. Like, but, um, but my farmer and I have been working for years on what that mix of grasses should be. Because a lot, like people, you need to make sure that you have some like carbohydrates and fast burning energy.

You need to make sure you have a certain amount of protein. You know, you're looking for other vitamins and nutrients and like corn and not GMO corn, but you know, heirloom corn, if it's seeded and it starts, and it shoots, it is initially grass. You know, that the, the sh the shoots are grass there, as far as digestibility goes, if you let it go to seed, if you turn it into actual corn, that's something that they can't digest.

The same thing goes for barley. Um, we've, we've tried a lot of different stuff. So, and what's interesting is like, corn has a super high sugar and carbohydrate counts. And the grass of it does too. You know, some other things are going to be higher in protein. So over time, you know, Some they're, they're grazing perennial pasture, but the farmers seeds for the forage so that they can harvest grass as hay.

And they actually, my farmer has a silo. So ours is, if you, if you're for anybody who doesn't know this, when you're driving down the road and you see the white raft bales of hay on the side of the road, that's hay wrapped in plastic. So it can ferment often referred to as haylage or baleage. If you put it in a silo, um, the same effect happens.

It's just kind of like a larger format version of that. So my farmers seeds for a mix of three different grasses that give us, um, all of that nutritional variant that we want. We put all three of those grasses into the silo, by the time that it formats and sinks down to the bottom and they, you know, rake it out and feed it to the cows.

They've got this really cool fermented, um, grass diet that has the full, you know, the full nutrition content that we're looking for. Um, so that's been a really cool project that I've been working on over the years. Like I. When I met him, he was actually like, he was using the green, we call it green corn.

That's like the idea of planting the corn seeds, right. Letting it grow to grass and just like very early on cropping it, um, he was using, he was using GMOs because he doesn't know any better. And my problem with GMOs, which is kind of how I started, this was like the need for fertilizers. It's like, there's other things that are wrong with GMOs, but ultimately in farming, it's like you are dependent on these, um, you know, synthetic fertilizers to grow these seeds over and over again.

And I don't want that on pasture and I don't want that being involved in, I don't want it on the land. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to give money to the businesses that are promoting this and I, and I don't want it in the diet of my animals. So for the beef, you know, I met Keith and he was, um, he was supplementing their diet with this green core and they were growing really well, but I was like, dude, you can't use the GMO seeds.

So we switched them, tell South central Pennsylvania, um, Yeah, he's out in, uh, Juni out of County. It's like kind of South of Harris. Yeah. So, you know, when I met him, he was doing this and he was kinda newer to grass fed beef and he knows a lot about beef, but he had a you'd recently gotten like a USDA grant.

His barn was split into two sides. This is just like, there's a roof and it's otherwise totally open air and the cows can wander out in the grass and the grass. Um, so he's like, well, I could split, I could split the herd and I could keep some of, you know, keep the ones that I'm raising for you. Um, you know, grazing and we'll just feed them alfalfa, alfalfa hay sounds awesome on paper.

It sounds awesome. And this was five years ago and I had, didn't kind of, I hadn't seen the inputs of this and it kind of ruined his beef. Um, there just wasn't enough. There wasn't enough protein. There wasn't enough carbohydrate in that and the animals just like we were giving them a lot of time and we just couldn't get them fat.

I mean, with good grass fed beef, it wasn't great grass fed beef. I knew it was capable. So over the next couple of seasons, cause he can see it in the spring and the fall and have two cropping seasons for hay. We tried a lot of stuff. We tried, we tried barley, we tried non-GMO Greencore and we tried more awfully sorghum Sudan.

We tried like all this different stuff. And over a few years he finally settled in on a couple of different, um, on a mix that works that gives us this complete, this complete package. So, and uh, so that's, that's how we make the beef fat and pigs and chickens. Like they don't grow on grass, you know? Do they like to root Peck forage all the rest?

Like should they have all of those things? Absolutely. Like the chickens will eat some grass, but mostly bugs and grubs. Uh, pigs eat grass. They they'll dig for like roots and tubers and stuff, but like they need grain. They need Grande to get fat. Um, so again, a free choice diet where they roam and they root and graze and they eat what they find.

And then if they're still hungry, uh, there is always, you know, a trough of this locally, milled grain for them. And again, you know, we're just still gonna, we make these decisions for a lot of reasons. Cause it's like, where are we putting our dollars? What industries are we supporting? Even the farmers that raise the grain for the animals.

We care that we're not encouraging them to put a ton of pesticide into the passion. That's going to run off into a local water stream and things like that. So, so I do have a non-GMO protocol for everything that, anything that we need to seed for these animals. So. Um, and you know, it's like they do need soy and they do need corn.

Um, because soy is protein and corn is carbohydrate, but we at least want to have the non-GMO, you know, heirloom versions of those going into those. There are better, there might, you know, it's like, everybody's looking for an alternative to those, those, those crops are not evil. The monocrop GM over shouldn't have for this evil.

I can go, I can obviously go on about this room. 

Eli Kulp: [01:10:36] I think that, you know, I didn't realize that the depth that you are, you know, only work with farmers where you're demanding that, you know, in order for you to support them, that they're going to need to sort of follow these guidelines because you're, you're ultimately looking out for the consumer.

I mean, that's really what it is, you know, it's fantastic to know that you have put that much energy. Into ensuring that the product you're selling to matches up with your principles and, you know, your company's ethos and that anybody who's going in there to buy, you know, be for pork or whatever, is that, you know, they can trust that you've, you've put these farmers through the, uh, through the, the 

Eli: [01:11:21] hoops.

Heather Thomason: [01:11:22] Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, we have a lot to look out for, like, we need to look out for the land. We need to look out for the local economy. So it's like if I put these protocols and standards in place and that's how we start, and we pass that through to the customer, then it's a very cool thing to make a guarantee to them that, you know, by, by buying this you're you're are effectively also supporting and encouraging all of these things, you know?

So, you know, we are, we are all collectively making an impact. And the other thing that's cool about it is that easy. Inputs do you translate to nutrition and flavor? You know, so it's like you, we are what we eat, right? Like these animals are what they eat and then that's what we're putting into our bodies.

So, you know, we're talking about incredibly nutrient dense meat and incredibly flavorful meat from the fact that these animals have a very diet and that they're active in their lives and they move around and, you know, blood and iron pumped through their veins and you know, that, that kind of thing. So, and, and it's cool.

I will say that like over time, you know, when I started primal, I had this idea, um, you know, when I was kind of writing plans and, and I've been fortunate to, um, be there sippy and have a, have a really great USDA grant. Um, it took me quite a lot of work to get it, and it's to support the, like, you know, logistics and marketing around local agricultural products to like our business in a nutshell, you know?

And, uh, but, but writing this grant, they had to basically write this like three year plan to grow and scale our business. And I, I did this pretty early on in the business and I, and I have to sort of reevaluate it and rewrite it every year because I owe them reporting. It's a fascinating thing. And when I was writing this in, like, I think primal was like a year old.

I, I, I'm almost done with the grant now, so it's like, I wrote it four years ago and you know, I got it a year later kind of thing. Um, and my goal at the time was like, I want a big mic to be impactful, to make a difference in our region. I need to support as many farmers as possible. So it was, I think at the time I was working with like six farmers and it was like, by the end of this three-year project, I want our network to be at least, you know, 20 farmers.

And I want it to be three slaughter houses, but as prime will actually grew, and we went from being the small business that I bought one or two beef and a couple of pigs, and we sold it to some restaurants and had, you know, our butcher's club is kind of like a meat CSA. Um, as I started to have to pull more net farmers into the network to scale our supply, you know, like when I, when we opened the South to the butcher shop, uh, in 2018, I needed more beets and I needed more pork and.

I started incorporating more farmers in the network. And the problem is that on paper, this might all sound the same. You know, people, we talk about genetics, we talk about diet. We, I go to their farms, I look at their pasture and if I was to never go there, but I was to describe all this stuff to you and write it down, you'd say, Oh, they're all doing the same thing.

It's all going to come out the same, but it's nature. And it's not. So I was like, despite the fact that I was putting all this effort into these protocols, the product was getting really inconsistent and that didn't feel scalable to me. Like, you know, chefs, it was very cool for us to be building up this wholesale program and to be the more animals I was buying, kind of the more restaurants I could work with because I actually had more meat to go around and I could start to people whose pars were like, had some volume I could supply them, but then it was just, there was too much variability.

That'd be farmer. One of the feedback. That's the other thing, you know, some of them. They're looking at an animal on the ground and they care a lot about these inputs, but I'm the one who sees like the output of that, you know, I see it as a carcass and I see it as meat and I can tell them like, okay, we're seeing like we're seeing a better intermuscular marbling, or we're seeing more fat in general, or I'm seeing like better confirmation and firmness or, okay.

I'm not seeing these things like the animals are lean or they're kind of soft. The meat is a little bit soft and floppy or like I'm seeing a higher moisture content things. Aren't good. And it's like, we need to be able to be partners and talk back and forth and have the cyclical feedback loop where when I say, Hey, I'm seeing these things that they're like, Hmm, okay.

Like I switched this in the feed ration, or I moved them to this new part of pasture or this thing happened with the temperature or the whole thing. So we can troubleshoot and we can figure out how to make it better. And over a couple of years, what I learned was that a few of my farmers really loved that.

Like they were super receptive to it and we were just getting tighter and the P the, the slow, and it's always been quality. And, you know, to the, to a home cook, I think they were always happy. But for me, like to, to a more discerning, um, chef who could, who would notice that variability, where it was just actually a problem for them to menu it when they needed consistency for their, uh, you know, for their customers.

It's like the people who loved it, I saw them produce a better and better and more consistent product. And the people who didn't want to do it, like we just kinda got stuck. So I just, I had this thing where kind of like it happened the opposite. I actually, in time hone in and have slowly and organically evolved into having a couple of a very small number of really dedicated farmers.

Who have grown, whisk, primal, and they had the resources be it land or land and animals, but also the like interest to partner and learn and take my feedback and improve all of these things. And now it's like, I have one poultry farmer and I have one beef farmer and I have one primary, uh, hog farmer. And it's like, you know, I used to buy two HODs a week from him and now I buy 12.

Um, I used to buy one beef and now I buy six, like, and it's, and it's kind of, it's cool. And it's fun. And like, Keith might be farmer and I are working on this breeding project, um, that we're two years into because he also, like, he really believes in hybrid vigor and that's like, that's the other side?

Feeding matters. Breeding also matters. Um, genetics. The next do matter, you know, and it's like, there's some predictability in genetics. So like we can seek carcass quality and muscle and fat and all of these things from the way that these animals are genetically predisposed by also putting the right inputs into them.

And Keith believes in hybrid vigor, which is the idea that like, we don't just want like a single line of the same genetics, um, not unlike breeding dogs or other things, right. Like mutts tend to live longer and be healthier. Right. So if we can cross something else in the line, that's complimentary, it's like he might be seeking other qualities too, because they're con they're considering things that I'm not like the temperament of the animal and pasture we're seeing in breeding, you know, all of it, even just the physical, like I care about the carcass itself, you know, like certain genetics will give you a longer, uh, torso in a hug or a shorter and more compact frame.

They have to look at them on pasture. They have to like the way to look, you know, it's like they gotta like look out the window and like really love the look of their herd. If they're going to raise a beef for two years for me. So we talk about all this stuff and Keith and I, um, he was crossing different breeds in and he was doing it from like a very kind of scientific standpoint.

And all of them were leaning the beef out when we were working so hard to like sat in it, up in a grass fed diet. So I was really just like, not love, you know, he'd kind of warned me and be like, Hey, for the next couple of weeks, the ones that you're finally seeing, it's the first group that's finished from when I crossed these limousines in or something, it's primarily Angus and I didn't love it.

And he knew that, and I was kind of pushing him to just kind of go back to just, you know, more or less purebred Angus. And one summer he started sending me these emails and he was like, I really want you to look into this. Like, I'm really interested in this one breed. I'd like to consider it. And I was like all the feed stuff I was talking about, you know, I think it was like year three for us.

And I felt like we had just really cracked the nut. I was like, damn, this is our first year coming off of this long road, you know, two weeks, two years to raise a beef, we can make these changes. We don't really see the impact for a long time. And I was really starting to be proud of, of our, of the meat that we were selling.

Like I was always, but I was just like, damn, I actually feel confident that I have the best and most consistent grass fed beef in the region. And the chefs are like, you know, I'm getting, I'm getting endorsements and feedback from chefs that I trust about the quality of this product. I was like, dude, why do we got a mess, a success, like stop.

So he's sending me all this information about this, this breed of these Japanese cattle that are, you know, the web, a lot of what, a lot of the way that Wagyu is raised to be as sad as it is, is the inputs, you know, like all the dietary and things that they do to them, but they are genetically predisposed to have the muscle, um, to, to have that intramuscular fat.

So he discovered this breed of cattle and he was interested in crossing man. And he was sending me all this information and I was kind of brushing them off. I traveled to Texas where, um, I came a restaurant, uh, Dido way. Um, that's a very cool which restaurant I was there. And what's that diet. Anyway, two words, I believe it's Dai, D U E something like that.

We're going to back up that Google will help you. Um, but uh, I knew the woman who was a butcher there and I'd met the chef over a long time ago. None of them were there. I was kind of like passing through for another reason and had dinner. Um, and I, I was with a friend. I don't really order meat in restaurants.

Um, most of the time I don't order because I eat my meat all the time. And to be totally honest, the meat that I'm going to order in a restaurant is, is not going to be the same standard of, you know, pasture-raised and all the rest. And I just also just eat a lot of meat in my life because I'm always tasting and testing.

And it's what I have. I just kind of like, don't have an interest, don't really do it. And I was with a friend and she was like, And when people are with me, they're always like, yo, you want the rabbi. Right? And I'm like, not really, I want the fish, but I'm still the friend. And she was like, Hey, we're, you know, we had a cocktail or two and she's like, let's order the ribeye.

And I was like, yeah, well, you know what? This we're in a place where I know where their sourcing is. I would love to eat a ribeye. I'd love to eat a grass ribeye, a Texas. And like this steak got served to me and I took two bites of it. And like was just like, she's like, are you okay? And I was like, I was like looking around and I was on my phone texting my friend, Julia, who was the boy who had been a butcher.

There was like, hi, I don't know if you know, I'm in Texas, I'm eating dinner. Like, do you know where this beef is sourced from? And it's like, my server, uh, came by the table and didn't know who I was. And I was like, I'm sorry. Um, can I ask you a question? Can I see this beef? And she's like, excuse me. And I was like, yeah, I'm just like really curious what these stakes, like, I was like, I'm sorry.

I happened to be a butcher I'm visiting. Like, is there any chance, like, would you mind asking chef? I didn't know. I know who the chef owner was. He wasn't there. Like, would you just mind asking chef, like, could I, you could bring it out or I could come back there, like, could I see your raw steak? And she's like, okay, it's kind of an unusual request, but I'll go back.

And like a few minutes later, she came out with like a sizzle plate with just like a raw ribeye on it. And I looked at it and I could see it didn't look that different than my beef, like beautifully marble, you know, it's like their variability in time of season. But I do think that we, our beef technically would grade like high select a prime.

I don't rate it because it's grass fed. It's too variable, but she showed me this beef and it's like, it looked like a gorgeous prime ribeye, but just, um, there was something so different about it. Like the muscle fiber was built so differently and it had this like way softer texture in my mouth and the fat was like so different and it's just like, It was eyeopening to me, um, to just something so unique.

And I would just went on this rampage. I was like, it was like, I was half drunk at like nine 30 at night on a Tuesday at a restaurant in Austin. And I'm like, emailing the farmer going, like I'm ready to mess with success. I'm going to find out more. Um, I'm sorry. Cause long story short is that I texted my friend and said, who is this farmer?

And she's like, Oh, she's a female farmer. You'd love her. And I like just quick, Google led me to see that they were raising this breed of Japanese cattle.

Matt Bueller, the chef at Vettery at the time who was buying a lot of my beef and I was emailing my farmer and I was like freaking out. Like, I couldn't think about anything else. And, uh, like I changed my flight and I rented a car. And like two days later I drove to visit this farmer who had actually become a really good friend of mine.

And, uh, her husband actually grows a lot of beef, uh, in a more traditional, mostly grass fed, lightly grain finished program. And then she does a really small like grassfed program off of their home farm, but he's been involved in this genetic project for 10 years. So it's like, This was two years ago. And like, you know, I visited them, I saw their farm.

I learned a lot about the cattle. Um, I came back, they visited Philadelphia. My farmer has since gone down there, he's bought bulls, he's tracked them back up. Um, he's crossing them in kind of be like, it will add the hybrid vigor to our Angus line, but I hope some of these desirable qualities. And he was like, do you want me to do some that are just pure bread?

Yes, please. Cause I'd like to know what these are like, but this is like really fun shit. And also, um, I'm still two years or year away from tasting this beef?

No, like he brought the bowl back last year. That was a year after I went to Texas, which was six months after he proposed this research. He then breeds them, you know, and then we have a two year growing cycle. So. You know, but it's like, it's a very cool thing to have these local relationships and do this.

And at the end of the day, my customers are just like, wow, your meat's really good. And well, we have great farmers and we do have, you know, we control the inputs and we take a lot of care and how we handle the meat. And like, yes, we're good butchers. You know, I do care about that too. But so much of it happens before that, you know, and it's like, well, it's 

Eli Kulp: [01:24:44] interesting because I think the, you know, the, the, the struggle that chefs have with, with cocaine, grass fed in particular is that historically has been a very difficult me to cook because, you know, I often thought, you know, I'll, I'll find myself saying this.

I know it's not, you know, across the board, but you know, anything over medium rare is going to be, they can make the very unpleasant experience for the guests in the restaurant. You can't control how people were there, how, how they wanted their meat. You know, that means a order of Weldon porterhouse.

Blesses it pains. You

Heather Thomason: [01:25:24] add grass fed beef out there because all of these things I just talked about, there's a lot of farmers who think that it's as simple as just putting them on grass and not really controlling these inputs as much. And they're also like we're still kind of recovering from this thing that happened a long time ago, where when grass fed originally sort of became something that was trying to be marketed with people who wanted grass fed were mainly coming to it from more of like a nutritional standpoint, you know, it wasn't chefs, right.

It was like, it was, it wasn't about slavery. It's like they wanted, you know, they, they just wanted the health benefits. And there was not trust in as a consumer. If you went to a store and you were going to buy grass fed beef, and you looked at it and it wasn't lean, like you just didn't see like a totally red muscle.

Like you looked at a ribeye, like you should not, you, if you saw marbling, you'd be like that as in grass fed. So for a brief period of time, the grass fed beef industry, and this was not brief, but this was, this was something that was happening. They were all intentionally breeding for lean grass fed beef, because that was what the market demand was for that.

It was like if they were going to be able to sell it to a whole foods or even take it to a farmer's market, they wanted to have this super lean, visibly grassfed beef and. It sucked. It turns so many people off, or we're just kind of amateur farmers kind of getting in this game because of the demand. And they weren't, um, they were letting the animals kind of like to their own devices, graze, and like, not be that finished or like the really strong presence of iron, like too much.

So there's a lot, a lot has changed and it's evolving in that still kind of exists. But I think there is more understanding about the idea that grass fed beef does not have to be lean and it doesn't have to be terrible and irony and unpalatable, and it doesn't have to like seize up and have like, there, there used to be this trend towards this Piedmont Tazy beef.

Um, and they're like, people talk about them having double muscles. And I did not know what that meant for the longest time. Even the farmers would say it to me all the time, but they'd be like, Oh yeah, we have this Angus beef Piedmont has a beef. If you've ever seen, like, I recommend Googling it. If you've ever seen a Piedmont Tazy it looks like a bodybuilder it's like reading and like bulging and it's and there they are genetically predisposed to be really Bolty, but lean muscled animals.

It's also pretty tender. It's like more tender than anything, but they were like purposely breeding these, crossing these in to produce this like SU like large lean loin eye. Yeah. And that the idea that like, no, you can actually like with the help of forage, you can raise Angus cattle on grass. Cause that's kinda what they were meant to in the first place.

It's like we have thankfully come full circle for the most part in the market. And I feel like I'm just really, I've been pushing for. You know, five, six years now for my farmers to kind of be ahead of that, recover from that. And like, we are not shitty grass fed beef that people don't, it's not what they want.

Eli Kulp: [01:28:13] Oh, we can't wait for this new line of beef coming out.

Heather Thomason: [01:28:19] I know our customers will appreciate it because it's just going to be better and whether or not they truly understand or care why, but I know that the chefs of Philadelphia, um, are really going to like, I look, I know that I have a gift coming and I can't wait. I cannot wait.

Eli Kulp: [01:28:38] Yeah, it was really cool. I do want to talk a little bit about being a woman in a male dominated field and you know, I've done some sort of background on you a little bit and it's easy to say. Yeah, you're hardworking and grit and sort of the mentality for it, but. What have, what have been some of the, I guess, the real challenges of doing it and then flips on the flip side, what are some of the benefits of being a woman in this field?

Heather Thomason: [01:29:14] Um, yeah, it's, it's definitely loaded. Um, it's like, I appreciate the way that you're framing this. Cause I really hate being asked, like, what's it like to be a girl doing your job? And I'm just like, I would be like, I don't know, chef, what's it like to be a man doing your jobs? You know? Um, but it's true.

It's like, it's, I I'm a little bit like, uh, I think I've been a little bit, uh, or naturally blind to it in a way that's benefited me. If that makes sense. Like, I didn't really notice or care and I just, I grew up, um, you know, it's funny. Cause I was like, I guess like if again, on paper it sounds like I was probably like a pretty girly girl, you know, I like.

I did ballet. Um, I wore dresses every day when I was a graphic designer, because it was really like actually convenient, but one article of clothing on and be like professional. Uh, but I've always had like, you know, I've had a lot of male friends, um, throughout my life. Like I have a brother, I just like, I've kind of always been unseized by that.

Um, so professionally, like when I decided that I wanted to do this thing and I was so driven by the farming, and then once I discovered poetry, I actually really loved poetry. Like I just took to it so much. I didn't know. I would so like pursuing and honing that craft was so interesting to me that. I was just so like, you know, uh, in my own motivated world to do these things that like, I didn't really notice or care that much, that like everybody around me wasn't like me.

I think some people really depend on and need to have like models. Uh, I just, it's just not me, you know, it's like, it didn't, it didn't deter me that I didn't look around and see, see another woman doing what I was doing. Um, and they 

are 

Eli Kulp: [01:30:50] out there. They're just, 

Heather Thomason: [01:30:52] they're just, no, they're not like the face, you know, and there's not that many of them, and you're probably not going to work with one or at least, you know, even for me, I was training to be a butcher in like 2012, you know, um, a lot has changed in the last nine years.

So it's like, I guess, like it benefited me that I didn't notice and I didn't let it slow me down. And I just kinda like elbowed my way in. Uh, but you know, I did arrive at a butcher shop in Berkeley where I was, um, they had some female apprentices come through before, but the entire staff was all male butchers.

There was women on the staff, but they were not butchers. And I was the first person who was ever like an apprentice. They, they were really serious. Now the owner, Aaron, uh, was a chef turned butcher, and he came up through the kitchens of like Paul Bertolli and then he cooked it  for a really long time before he started his butcher shop.

Like he was a very serious person with very high standards. And I really it's. So like, I feel so fortunate that I learned under him for those reasons. Um, but he also had a really high standard about who he would move into his shop as a butcher. Um, so they had never actually promoted an apprentice into a role.

And they used to, um, insist that all butchers had to have professional culinary training because they wanted to have them give that benefit to customers. And I didn't check any of those books and I like, you know, and I, and I still managed to get hired and be a butcher there, but like these guys, you know, they were supportive of it it's me.

They didn't treat me differently, but they did, you know, it's like they, uh, you know, they kind of gave me a hard time to tease me a little bit. It was all in good fun, like as if I was their little sister or something, but like at the end of the day, you know, there's always kind of, it's like, it's like the click that you're not a part of.

And I think that, like, it just helped that, like I had such a, I had such like a focus long game goal, and this was just a step in it, but that never really bothered me. But I think to some other people. To not feel accepted. And like I said, I don't, I wouldn't say that I felt unaccepted, but you know, it's just like, there's a moment where they all go have beers and they don't invite you.

Or, you know, they're like making sort of, there's some dude conversation happening off to the side and you're not a part of it. Or like every once in a while they do kind of give you a hard time or tease you to expect that you won't be able to do something that you can. So, you know, like I said, and I'm, and I'm fortunate that I was in a soup.

I've never dealt with anything that had to do with like all the negative stuff. Like I've never been treated appropriately or any of that bullshit. Um, I'm talking about like, just kind of your average, you know, like them, them just kinda, and I was the intern, of course they were going tease me. But yeah, I was, I was kind of unfazed by that and I just think it's my personality.

I think that the benefit to be so, so that was, that was kind of training. Um, and then later I will say that by the time that I became a business owner and you're sort of in a different place where like your peers are not the people that you're working with, your peers are like your colleagues and other business owners.

I think I just happen to be such like a unique. Seeing in Philadelphia and like what I do and what I was bringing that I actually feel really fortunate that like the chefs community here has always made me feel really accepted. They maybe didn't like, know who I was or take me as seriously as they might have, uh, as quickly as they might have if I had been a man.

But like, I honestly didn't notice. So I would say that like the benefits. There's there are benefits. One is everybody, a lot of men underestimate me and it just means that it kind of gives you an opportunity to like over-performing a over-deliver and that's kind of cool. Yeah. Look, it's really not the worst.

And yeah, they just, you know, like they're, and this happens less and less and less than like, you know, people know who I am now, but there was a period when they didn't and I was a manager of a butcher shop where somebody would come in and look past me at my male employee standing behind me and ask them the question because they didn't definitely didn't think I was in charge.

And like, I remember a customer wants at the butcher shop at the local butcher shop. Uh, he was actually a restaurant owner who was a regular customer of ours and he wanted pork Trotters. What do you want him to split on the band saw? And he was chatting me at the counter and I was like, yeah. Okay, no problem.

And then he said, but I mean, honey, why don't you ask one of the guys to do that? Because it's really not very safe. And it was just like, you know, shit like that happens. But like. Like I said a different person. Maybe it would bug them more. Like it just didn't bother me. Um, what it did make me do. 

Eli: [01:35:03] Exactly.

Yeah.

Heather Thomason: [01:35:07] This is a crazy thing because you grow up in New Jersey and you're always like, dude, why, why are people slider? Like you think it's an, it's fine. It's like a perfectly lovely place to where I grew up is like, it's really beautiful. It's really green. I had a good education, you know, all the shit. And then you leave and you go other places and you tell people from they're from New Jersey and they start shitting on it.

And you, you suddenly develop like this Jersey pride just comes out of all of us. It's like we go out into the world and we put like our little turtle shells on. Um, so I, you know, it's like, you're 18 and you get released to the world and everybody talks shit about the state you're from. And then you're like,

Eli Kulp: [01:35:45] Unfortunately, they just think it's, it's all. I mean, there are some really shitty, 

Heather Thomason: [01:35:51] shitty parts of it,

so yeah, no, I'm, don't, don't mess with me. I'm from New Jersey, but, uh, but yeah, no, so I was, I was unfazed by that stuff, so like, it really didn't get my way. Um, what's what is, to me was beneficial, is that because of all of this, it just made me work harder. It just made improve myself more. It was like, Hey, you know what?

Like if you guys are going to doubt me or you're not going to take me seriously, I will show you. So it's like, it made me better, you know? And it, it kind of sucks. It kinda sucks that women in industries where they are the minority do have to like work. Harder faster, longer to get the same recognition or pay or promotion as the guy that's next to them.

And that's just true. So even though that sucks, it means that like, if you're the type of person who can be tough enough to not let that get to you and let it drive you instead, like you're going to come out better and stronger in the end. And you know, now it's kind of cool because I've become this sort of accidental role model.

And I didn't mean to do that, but I do have, you know, women seek me out as an employer. Uh, you know, women kind of like in the industry will reach out to me and sort of imply to them that I've been a role model or like a sort of remote mentor to them. And that's cool, you know, it's like, I'll take it. Like it wasn't something you, but like, hell it's like, if there's people that see like how well, if you did it, then maybe I can do it.

Those, those people that do need to see the person that came before them to let them know it's possible. Um, if I can be that for other people, like that's, that's actually kind of, it's kind of an awesome thing. 

Eli Kulp: [01:37:26] No, I'd say it's a real benefit. I mean, do you find yourself, you know, being sure that you're, you're embracing other young women coming in and teaching them the skills, if they're 

Eli: [01:37:37] open to it, 

Heather Thomason: [01:37:38] Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, I like to think I'm kind of like a blind selector. It's like, I'm just looking if people need, if people come to me with like the right drive and motivation and some background that's gonna cross over, I think it's going to make them successful. Like I want you here. And I don't really care who you are, where you came from and what you look like.

And I genuinely feel like that's why I, that's how I've been building my team and making my selections. But what's cool is that we do have to select from, you know, the offerings that come to us and a lot more women come to me then, then probably to male run butcher shops. So, so just sort of coincidentally, I have had the opportunity to give opportunity to other women.

Um, and like at any given time, my, my butcher, my staff, but also specifically my butcher team has been at least 50%, if not predominantly female, like, like right now at the moment. Uh, yeah, I like my current butcher roster is only include at a five butchers includes two men. Oh, that's great.

Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's work harder, you know, work smarter, not harder. Like all those things, like it just, it doesn't, it doesn't fucking matter. It's basically what I think at the end of the day. So like, that's kinda what I'd like to model. Not like you can do it if you're a girl it's like, no, actually like if you are ready to like put in the work and be here every day, you can do it.

And it doesn't fucking matter whether you're a girl or a guy or neither. I 

Eli: [01:39:08] see 

Eli Kulp: [01:39:08] thinking about, I say the exact same thing about, you know, cooks or chefs, you know? Uh, there's not one thing that a woman cannot do better than a man. I've worked with women that are way better than me, you know, they've taught me a lot.

So

there's any gender discrimination happening inside of a restaurant? Uh, it doesn't make sense to me, to be honest, I know it's there. I don't want to be blind to it, but you know, it doesn't make sense then, you know, it's, it's becoming a much more of an even playing field. It was even 15 years ago. 

Heather Thomason: [01:39:47] All of those things that are like evolving in our industry, I do think that that's actually evolving the most quickly and in the most positive direction.

And also, I will say that I employ a lot of young people. The median age of my staff tends to be like, most of them are between like 25 and 28 and more and more and more over the last five years, you know, prime was almost five. Um, most of the young people who work for me choose not to identify as either male or female.

And I have to say that, like, I think that that is a very cool thing. Like I have a lot of respect for them to be like, don't put me in a category. Um, like I just want to be a person. And that is like, I think that ever, because like the it's a smart look, they're a little bit ahead of us. They're just like, I'm not going to let you pigeon hole me.

I'm not going to let you tell me who I should be. Um, and I actually think that that's like a really healthy outlook for the youth that is like, kind of, you know, the next people who are going to be growing up to do the things that we do. And, you know, also the other thing is just like, adversity is, is good for us.

You know, it sucks and it's hard, but like, you know, challenges make you stronger challenges make you better, you know? And so if for me, that's like one of the points of adversity that I've faced is that, like I said, I've had to kind of like. Step up and prove myself a little bit more or make people pay attention to me, um, and take seriously what I'm doing.

Like maybe it was a longer road or a less defined path, but I do feel like when I got there, the place where I arrived was just so I was so much stronger and better for that reason. Well, listen, this 

Eli Kulp: [01:41:23] has been really great. Uh, I do always finish on the 11 questions session to some folks, some little questions for the audience to get to know you a little bit better.

So if you're ready for that, uh, let's, let's shift it over there. All 

Heather Thomason: [01:41:41] right. Um, let's do it. Yeah. This has been awesome by the way. I, you never know, but like I do love talking to chefs and it is like the place where we can go and really go deep and nerdy about like the meat that I raised and what it means on a plate is like, this has been fun.

So anyway, I've 

Eli Kulp: [01:41:59] enjoyed it. You know, like I said earlier, I'm impressed and inspired by the. You know, the depth, the depth that you're going to, to, to really make sure that your product is special. Unique can tell you the story.

If you're not at work, what are you doing? 

Heather Thomason: [01:42:23] Um, well, uh, I watched a lot of movies. I always have a, that's kind of my way to decompress at night, but also in the last few years to achieve like personal balance, I started training and more Thai. Um, so a couple of days a week, I am at my gym punching stuff and kicking stuff.

Eli Kulp: [01:42:50] All right. So you were kind 

Eli: [01:42:51] of meat. 

Heather Thomason: [01:42:53] Oh, that's easy. I am a champion of the sirloin. I love it. I love it for the fact that it's like you get, I think you get this like perfect mix of all of the qualities, like it's on the tender spectrum, but it's not as like, sort of, it does a little bit more, more than the loin steaks, which are like melt in her mouth tender, but lack in flavor, but it is not as active as some of the like hardworking muscles that you have to like raise and render tender.

So it's just, it's kind of, 

Eli Kulp: [01:43:20] are you talking past the strip 

Heather Thomason: [01:43:23] loin? The top 

Eli: [01:43:26] sirloin is, could we use it 

Heather Thomason: [01:43:29] or linen beef? We also cut them in pork, you know, it's that kind of like triangle shape muscle, because it's basically where the Le where the loin or the back papers into the leg. So it's like, you're getting this kind of confluence of like that sort of activity and flavor that would come from like the round or the leg, but starts to be kind of unpalatably chewy.

Yeah. Um, so it never goes that far in texture, but you get the flavor benefits and yeah, sure. It's not quite as tender as a New York strip, but it's still going to kind of eat a lot, like one. So on, on all animals, I think you'd just kind of get the best of both worlds on like of the, what does it do? How does it taste sort of thing,

Eli Kulp: [01:44:06] eighties, nineties steak, 

Heather Thomason: [01:44:10] if you're shopping at my butcher shop and you're going to, like, what's an example of that, but like, that's, um, if you're asking me like, what am I eating? It costs a lot less eats a hell of a lot, like in New York strip. And it's got a little more flavor, same with pork. It's like, uh, we sell pork sirloin steaks all the time and they just, they cook like a boneless pork chop, but like a little more marbling, a little more flavor, a little more texture.

Very cool. You should revisit those eighties tops 

Eli Kulp: [01:44:34] for you back to a steakhouse. All right. Best thing about owning your own business 

Eli: [01:44:41] hard question, 

Heather Thomason: [01:44:42] because there are so many things that are hard about running your own business, but, um,

um, I mean, I'm just like, I'm an untaught, I'm an autonomous person. Like, I am just like, you know, I'm like, I got an idea I'm going to do what I'm going to do, get out of my way. So I like that, you know, being the owner, being the leader, it's like, I can do that, you know, it's yep. 

Eli Kulp: [01:45:06] With you on that one. Uh, what's the worst thing about owning your business?

Heather Thomason: [01:45:10] Uh, you know, it's, it's hard. It's like, there's a lot of risks, so that's the thing it's like, it potentially there's reward, but there's always risk. Uh, so that can be just kind of stressful and overwhelming and. I will say that as much as I love my team, um, it's hard being an employer. Like I just, I care deeply about people and it's a lot of weight on my shoulders to not only run a business, but care about the health and wellbeing of the 20 people that are responsible for helping me.

Yeah.

Eli: [01:45:38] Okay. 

Eli Kulp: [01:45:41] If you can tell us what restaurant you love the most, do you have one, or can you define one or is that too 

Heather Thomason: [01:45:53] political? I'd probably pick, I can probably pick. It's still tricky. Cause it's like, I, you know, over the years as I built up my wholesale accounts, uh, around the city of linear chefs that were kind of becoming my, I consider my chef than my chef partners.

Um, obviously those are the restaurants that I favor. I tried to eat in their restaurants. I wanted to see my product on the plate. I think I would say Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Um, yeah. I love Chad. I think that, like, I just think his, I think he and Hannah are just like, they're such a total package, you know, it's like.

There is nothing there that isn't amazing, you know, it's like from the food to the hospitality, to all of it, and he's just like chest chat is like just such a real person and such a talented chef. And I just, he just always surprises me. I love it. 

Eli: [01:46:37] Good answer. 

Heather Thomason: [01:46:38] Favorite ice cream flavor. Oh, that's really easy.

Chocolate chocolate chip

Eli: [01:46:47] chocolate,

chocolate, chocolate,

Heather Thomason: [01:47:03] chocolate, and put more chocolate in it. 

Eli Kulp: [01:47:07] Best decision you've 

Eli: [01:47:08] ever made. I guess I would have 

Heather Thomason: [01:47:10] to say in my own business, you know, it was like a really pivotal point in my life. And I feel like I'm like who I'm supposed to be now doing what I'm supposed to do. And. I love my life before. And that was 

Eli Kulp: [01:47:21] great though.

I mean, you can get passionate about graphic design, but you said there's lots about it, but

it's a purpose purpose-driven sort of life. 

Heather Thomason: [01:47:37] Like, it's not always easy, but it's like, I've never not wanted to get out of bed and like keep doing this 

Eli Kulp: [01:47:44] beef jerky or B stick, 

Eli: [01:47:47] random question. 

Heather Thomason: [01:47:49] Not that random because I'm being like, you know, I eat a lot of, both of these things. Um, okay. I will, this is, uh, this is a complicated answer, but I will say that like, from a product standpoint, like if I could choose which one I think has the ability to be like better, more interesting.

Um, it would be beef jerky, but. I am really dependent on beef sticks. Um, I have these ones that like, my processor makes for us with our beef and they're basically like, you know, good for you, slim Jim's. And I do not go anywhere. I have, like, I get nervous if there aren't at least three in my backpack at any given time, because like, I get that I'm hungry.

And they're like, it's my, it's my, all the time food. So like, I kind of can't live without beef sticks, but I love beef.

Eli Kulp: [01:48:41] Yeah. Yeah. You're passionate about it. So I like that as well. I think for me, I would say like only go like in a car, like beef stick, because I would always, I would always. The gas station B sticks. I mean, like, I always, I was like, my go-to at home as a snack, but Turkey is just something we always have in the cabinet.

Heather Thomason: [01:49:08] Something that I make, like we make beef Turkey in house and I love it. And it's been a cool thing to evolve, but I mean, like even pre you know, sustainable meat when I was a child, like, I love that.

Eli: [01:49:22] All right. 

Eli Kulp: [01:49:23] Favorite vegetable to me 

Eli: [01:49:25] for a second.

Heather Thomason: [01:49:28] I hate vegetables. I do sometimes give off that, that, because like, if, if there's only so much room on my plate, I will not choose the best. I'm going to go eggplants. I love, it's kind of a dark horse, you know, it's like, it has this very brief fleeting season and, uh, I don't know. It's just so interesting. I love it roasted.

I love it. Fried. I love how it can like puree and totally transform. And it's just like, it's so unique, you know? It's like, yeah, there's just nothing else. Like it, it's like it's its own category and they're beautiful. Like beautiful that, that color. 

Eli Kulp: [01:50:08] All right. Your favorite place to just kind of chill out in Philadelphia.

Let's say it's not a 35 degrees out.

Heather Thomason: [01:50:20] Yeah. Um, the cool, one of the coolest things that happened was it like hiking became part of my wife's and when we moved to Philadelphia, we, my husband and I tried, I tried really hard to maintain that as something that we would do, like, you know, on a Saturday or Sunday, we've always had a dog. I still offer a few years because I was just so, so underwater, like all the time, trying to build primal supply.

But in this past year we did, um, the pandemic kind of helped us do that. Be like on Sundays, the business is closed now and no matter what, we would just kind of wake up, have a lazy morning, grab the dog, go to the West of Hicken and it's awesome. It's like, it's a really, yeah, it's a special place. And it's like, it's cool that you can, uh, you can just kind of keep it's really big, you know, it's like, it's, it's got this dense network of trails and you can always discover new places in it.

Yeah.

Eli Kulp: [01:51:06] All right. Last question. If you could sit down with one person, pastor to have a meal with who would it be? 

Eli: [01:51:13] Wow. 

Heather Thomason: [01:51:14] Wow. Who would it be? My goodness. All these musicians are popping to my mind. It like nothing to do with food.

Aretha Franklin lifetime, like role model and music model. I just like, I don't know. I love her. I love her for being such a force in so many ways. Like, and, uh, I don't even, I feel like this makes me want to like now research more about her personally and see what like her dietary preferences were. Cause like, I really hope that man, when we have sat down and like immediately started bonding over, like all the things that we were going to order off of a menu and getting psyched about the food.

Cause that would really be amazing. I'd hope that she wouldn't just be like, I'll just have the salad. Cause I don't.

Eli Kulp: [01:52:00] Yeah, I'll be, will the best way to connect with 

Heather Thomason: [01:52:03] you. Yes. Thank you. Uh, so we are re you've gotta be in Philadelphia, the Philadelphia region. Uh, we don't, we don't ship meat yet. Uh, I'm just, I'm not brave enough to put it in the mail, but you can visit one of our three locations. So we have brick and mortars that we are limiting capacity, but we are open for walk-in business, South Philly, Fishtown, Brewerytown, and we now have a really amazing online store.

So you can actually order online to pick up any of those locations or home delivery, uh, including some Pennsylvania and New Jersey suburbs. Um, and we have a butcher's club too. So like, if you're, if you're so inclined, you can kind of like subscribe to support and get a weekly box picked by our books.

Eli Kulp: [01:52:44] Nice, great. That's going to be a fun, little, a little challenge for everybody. Open 

Eli: [01:52:50] that 

Heather Thomason: [01:52:50] up. Yeah, it's very cool. I love it. Like, you know, it's, it's easier to think about that in the CSA vegetable model, you know, that thing where like people get kohlrabi from the first time and they're like, I didn't even know what this was and had to look it up, but yeah, customers are like, I never would have, uh, made beat shanks or I didn't know what a Denver steak is now.

It's my favorite cuts. Very cool. 

Eli Kulp: [01:53:08] Well, listen, this has been really fantastic. Can you be so open and honest and authentic with us? I think, you know, hopefully people will hear this and you know, it's just a couple of people's ear and they're like, okay, you know, I'm like, I'm gonna go try. I'm a sort of, you know, you sold me on it.

And, uh, you know, hopefully that, you know, it's really important, just a little bit of momentum all the time for the right farmers, the right producers, the right poachers to be supported. 

Heather Thomason: [01:53:40] And like, you know, that's, it's, that's totally us. It's like a day by day one person at a time battle, you know, it's like, let, letting people discover us, ask the right questions, come to us for the right reasons.

And like, hopefully make an impact and change their, you know, their sort of buying, cooking habits. So yeah, come on, come on over and see the local butcher, like learn. What's good. You know, 

Eli Kulp: [01:54:01] talking about this, such a dying art and you know, the fact that there's this new generation of it and you're near the one sort of down here in Philadelphia, that's really taking it by the horns.

Heather Thomason: [01:54:13] Yeah. It's, it's cool. And there's there, you know, there is a rich, rich history of poetry in this city, which I really do consider my home now. I mean, I've been embraced, I've been here for a really long time now, almost seven years. Um, and I've just felt really welcomed and really embraced here. And I feel like in the food community, there's a lot of appreciation and respect for what I do.

And, uh, and I love the fact that like, You know, I, I feel like I am like promoting something that is so important and to the history of our city. And I hope like, you know, just carrying it on. So it's 

Eli Kulp: [01:54:46] the future of our planet. 

Heather Thomason: [01:54:48] Yes that too. Um, Hey, it's been really nice to see your face, even if you weren't in the same place, because we're, you know, video, social distancing.

I feel like, I feel like we've been in the same room for the last, uh, the last bit. And it's been, that was good. 

Eli Kulp: [01:54:59] Yeah. After a while the, uh, the virtual sort of idea kind of goes by the wayside, it just becomes a conversation 

Heather Thomason: [01:55:07] stuff. Yeah, exactly. Um, well, thanks, Jess. This has been awesome. 

Eli: [01:55:12] Thank you.

Eli Kulp: [01:55:18] Thanks for listening to the chef radio podcast. If you'd like to support the show, please leave us a review. Wherever you listen to your podcast, it helps others find the show and allows us to continue to make great content. The chef radio podcast is produced by radio kismet post-production and sound designed by studio D podcast production.

And I am your host, Eli Kulp.