Starting from the Soil Up: Conversations with Agricultural Leaders at the Food Forever Event

RODALE INSTITUTE

Eli Kulp and Christopher Plant visit Pocono Organics during their massive Food Forever event and sit down with multiple farmers and agricultural geniuses to talk about the future of food production and how we can go beyond sustainability.

Food Forever is a communications campaign, which started in 2017, to raise awareness about what crop diversity is and how everyone around the world is connected to and benefits from agricultural biodiversity. Eli and Christopher sit down with Ashley Walsh, Cierra Martin, Jeff Moyer and Erik Oberholtzer.

Ashley Walsh is the owner of Pocono Organics and talks about how she got into organic farming, working with Food Forever and Rodale and the creation of her immense organic farm, the home of three story greenhouses. 

Cierra Martin is a representative for The Crop Trust, the creators of the Food Forever campaign. The Crop Trust is an international organization with a mission to safeguard crop diversity for food security. The Crop Trust supports a network of genebanks which are facilities for tasking with conserving and sharing seeds. They're making sure this diversity stays alive at the seed level, but they're also packaging it up and shipping it around the world for breeders that use it every day. 

Jeff Moyer is the CEO of Rodale Institute. “Widely recognized as the birthplace of the organic movement, Rodale Institute is a nonprofit dedicated to growing the organic movement through rigorous research, farmer training, and consumer education.” Jeff talks about the importance of regenerative organic agriculture, farming not just organically and sustainably, but with the future of the soil in mind, and the recently released White Papers. The White Papers are a report on climate change and how a shift from cash crops to cover crops could actually reverse our carbon emissions by putting carbon back into the soil.

Erik Oberholtzer is a chef, entrepreneur, and co-founder of Tender Greens. He is on the Rodale Board of Directors and is a leader of the food forever experience, helping to connect Rodale with The Crop Trust. He discusses the importance of building transparent supply chains, new organic certification regulations, and the nutritional and environmental importance of organic agriculture. 

Eli: [00:00:00] What's up everybody. It's Eli, back at it again. We've got episode two of season two coming at you. Thank you as always for tuning in. Man, fall is here. It is here and full strength right now. Yeah. Well, you've been hitting up, these autumn festivals and farms like left and right. I think we're up to like four or five of them now, already. 

And we still have a few more months until Halloween. So a few more months. Nevermind a few more weeks. Yeah. So we went up to, this Mennonite farm up in Mohnton, PA it's in Lancaster County, just on the, really on the border of Berks County and this farm called Breckknock Orchard. And they did a fantastic job. 

They had a nice little festival there. had my first Apple cider slushie. Never had that one before. So very, these guys are on the cutting edge of what's happening in the farmer's stand slash fall festival a world. They're, they're setting the trends. So yeah. Anyways, Apple cider slushie, probably the best Apple cider donuts I've had. Fresh out of the fresh out of the fryer, which helps obviously. 

You know, we went down to Linvilla orchards, which is, you know, everybody knows that in Philadelphia, you know, of Linvilla a great place, but not the best donuts. I was a little disappointed. These were ridiculous. And they were even as good the next day. 

and a little pro hint, just throw them in the microwave for like 15 seconds the next morning. And it's like, they're fresh out of the fryer again. Don't overdo it. They get hot very quick. They'll burn the heck out of your mouth. Yeah. So let's see. The best thing I ate this week, I got to say is my buddy, Justin Holshizers butternut squash soup. 

We went up to this farm and met them there. They live right across the county line, in Berks County. And he treated us to a wonderful, sort of Penn Dutch autumn festival food. throw it down. We had all kinds of things, but the one that really stood out was his soup. 

At first, I was trying to picture a butternut squash with, you know, ham hocks. And he sent me these tantalizing photos of the, braised and picked ham hock meat, that he was going to put in it. And he just literally made a really banging butternut squash soup and took the picked and the pulled meat and just chucked it right in there, served it with some really great fresh baked bread from right there. 

Some local bakery. It was dynamite. I couldn't stop eating it. It was like a fork slash spoon type soup where you had enough hearty, ham hock went to got down to the bottom. He just needed a fork to eat it with so anyways, big shout out to Justin. Well done. Thank you for your hospitality. All right. 

So let's talk about the show that you're about to listen to. This was really an inspiring day. Chris and I, Christopher plant, we went up to the Pocono organics, all loaded with our equipment to do an offsite recording. And this event was the food forever, racing to protect biodiversity event. It was in conjunction with the Rodale Institute and Pocono organics.

there's some really great chefs up there cooking. We had Ange from Saté Kampar. We had a Kiki from Poi Dog, which was great. I mentioned that, last week's podcast. So the interviews you're going to hear today are really some key players in the world of biodiversity, as well as regenerative agriculture. 

These are big words, but really important words that we need to begin to understand. And for chefs out there and cooks, and whoever's listening out there, consumers, you know, if you're, if you're interested in doing what's right for the world, you need to start focusing on, on farms that are able to, really. 

Give us these products that are they're done and they're grown in a sustainable way. Be careful about buying commodity products, from purveyors or commodity products from, you know, your supermarket. They're not being grown and harvested in a way that's conducive for, you know, our long term, survival on this planet. 

So we talked to a few different people. You're going to hear interviews. I think there, you're going to hear interviews from four different people, three different interviews. The first one you're going to hear is Ashley, who is the founder and president of Pocono organics. And she's going to talk about the importance of biodiversity as well as the, they're doing with regenerative organics. 

one of the first, regenerative organics in our farms in our region, which is, you know, I've been honored to be up there a couple of times. And I can't say enough, like they're game changers. They really are. Then we talked to another really inspiring individual. She runs the Food for Every Event. 

Cierra, she's going to talk a lot about what, food forever does and what they're doing, and, you know, the importance that, of the. You know, the importance of what they're doing in the realm of, you know, really trying to protect the biodiversity that is all over our planet. You know, I think the stats are pretty staggering to, to really hear how, how much of, you know, the humans eat now and such a small amount of what's actually edible. Cierra has those stats. And then, you know, we're gonna talk to Jeff Moyer and a friend of the show, Eric Oberholser and they're going to talk about Rodale Institute. They were announcing their, white papers, which talks about, you know, the, what they have found recently in studying regenerative agriculture. 

So very informative show. it might lack the pazazz if you're, if you're, if you're thinking like, Oh, we're gonna talk about agriculture, not really that important to me. I beg you to listen. and one more thing before we get to the show, I've said it already. I'll say it again. I watched the documentary on Netflix called Kiss The Ground. 

It'll change your perspective. It'll really simplify things for you. You're going to hear words today. carbon sequestering, you know, regenerative, organic agriculture, crop diversity, you know, big words. that would get thrown around, but they're, they're important words for you as a chef, you as a cook and you as a consumer to start thinking about when it comes to purchasing these products, because ultimately that's the control that we have, you know, we can vote.

And we have, you know, are we our money, you know, where we want to put our money. These are things that will continue to support, farms that are doing it the right way. And you know, it's, it's in the end of the day, it's a few cents more, but you get product that's grow the right way and is thinking about how, you know, we can protect the earth while being responsible, farmers. 

So. Anyways, we'll get to the show, give it a listen. Let me know what you think. you can always email me@eliatchefradiopodcast.com. Oh. And before I forget one more thing, there will be, on the Patreon. You will hear an interview of Ange Branca, who was there cooking at Saté Kampar. So. If you don't know about what the Patreon is, basically, it's a way you can support the show through donation and you know, all this is out of pocket. 

So if you have anything that you want to donate, like what you hear and you want to support the show and see the show grow, please visit our website, which is a chef radio podcast.com and see, you can check out the Patreon. So join the show, everybody. Have an awesome couple of weeks. I'll talk to you in, a couple of weeks. Bye. 

This is the chef radio podcast. Each week groundbreaking chef talks. Chef talks, CHEF. Cooking, hospitality, environment food. Is that really what it stands for? I never really knew that. Delivered to you straight from the minds of the people who shaped the way we eat. 

It's hard to believe the possibility of food over. IAnd were going to discuss sponge cakes. These talks, these ideas and more on the chef radio podcast. 

Everyone, Eli here and I am sitting across the table from the president and founder of Pocono Organics, Ashley Walsh. How are you? 

Ashley: [00:09:06] Great. Thanks for being here. 

Eli: [00:09:07] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for joining us today. We are sitting in your facility. It's an amazing facility. It blows my mind. Every time I come here, I'm sure you must be very proud of it. 

Ashley: [00:09:17] We are very proud. 

Eli: [00:09:19] Yeah. No, if you haven't heard about Pocono Organics, I always tell people if they haven't heard they will soon because what you guys are doing here is amazing. It's amazing for our region. You know, you sit here kind of in the middle between New York and Philadelphia and the Pocono mountains, near the Pocono Raceway, which is a part of the conversation here as well. And, you know, Excited to be here. Tell us what's going on today. What is all this about? 

Ashley: [00:09:42] So today we're very excited to be hosting the Food Forever Experience Pocono. it's the 11th Food Forever Experience that they've had throughout the world in the last two years, the first one was actually two years ago today. 

Exactly. In New York at Google headquarters. And today it's a fitting day because it's the UN global day of action.

Eli: [00:10:01] That's right. It is. I haven't talked about that yet. 

Ashley: [00:10:04] So it's the day to bring everybody together and, and inspire everyone to do more for, for human health and planetary health. 

Eli: [00:10:12] So what is the UN day of global action? What is that? 

Ashley: [00:10:16] So it's just to inspire people to take action. You know, a lot of people talk the talk, but we're trying to get people to walk the walk and become doers, to make, make a change in their corner of the world. 

Eli: [00:10:26] Awesome. And that can be any action. That's not just about farms and food.

Ashley: [00:10:31] And any action. The UN has 17 sustainable development goals. So it kind of hits on everything, of just preserving the world's natural resources and making the world, leaving the world a better place than how we received it. 

Eli: [00:10:43] Awesome. So how did you get to this point? Like what is the path that led us to today? Cause I know it's, it's, it's very personal to you. 

Ashley: [00:10:53] If you would've told me 10 years ago that I would be a farmer I'd. Say you were absolutely crazy, but you know, it is a personal story for me. The concept for Pocono Organic started back in 2015. I suffer from a stomach condition called gastroparesis, which means I have a paralyzed stomach and I can't digest fruits, vegetables, or meats, like normal people. 

Can I have to puree juice, smoothies, soups, all of my food to be able to get my nutrients that's so, I. Kind of got to the end of the road with Western medicine. They just wanted to cut out my stomach and me feeding tubes, put me on a bunch of horrible medications that didn't even really help. But anyway, and I didn't want to go down that path. 

I was about to be 30, wanting to start a family, you know, I didn't want to have to have that. so I started working with new doctors and I adopted organic lifestyle and using nontoxic products and. You know, in a short amount of time, the results were undeniable that using food as medicine improve my quality of health automatically. 

I mean, I went from being sick five days a week in bed to five days a month now. and strictly by just changing what I was putting into my body, putting more nutrient dense food in there. I might only get 10 bites of food a day and I had to make sure each bite is it as nutritious as it 

can be. And, you know, I had a 9.3 pound baby didn't even know if I was going to be able to have a child. 

So he's total organic baby, you know? And, and my grandparents were both doctors and, and, I just wanted to shout from the rooftops of, Hey, you know, maybe this can help other people get off their medications. Maybe this can help people improve their quality of life. And it started as just a 50 acre farm where I wanted to get the supplies that I couldn't get, right. If I'm making my favorite soup and I can only get half the ingredients, it was driving me

crazy, trying to find organic versions. And especially up here in the Poconos, you know, most people think of a food desert in the inner city, but we're our own fruit desert up here. 

you know, have to drive 45 minutes to an hour to get to a store that might have a good organic selection of everything that I might need. So 

Eli: [00:12:55] I'm sure the stores around here are, are limited and they're probably pretty basic, right? So there's not a ton of, Organic vegan stores or restaurants around here. 

Ashley: [00:13:03] Absolutely not, not like the cities, you know, more urban areas. 

Eli: [00:13:06] All right. So today is an event that you are, working with, food forever and the crop trust. I mean, how did that relationship come to be what it is today? Because I'm here kind of through mutual relationships that I was introduced through with Christopher Plant sitting right over there, with Eric. 

So we all kind of came here in this interesting way, but how did you come across, you know, what they're doing and then sort of become a part of it. 

Ashley: [00:13:37] So we got invited by Eric to the First Food Forever in New York two years ago. it was a really small event, only about 50 people. We ended up being the only farmers there. 

and I was just completely inspired. You know, I'd been on this health journey and then I just got so inspired of really realizing how broken our food system is. And with me trying to get as much nutrients as I could. This just became very personal to me that like, I want to be a part of it. I want to grow these ancient varieties that people will have trouble sourcing. 

You know, they have all these chefs signed up to use these ingredients, these ancient, nutrient dense ingredients in their restaurants. And with us being 90 miles from New York, 90 miles from Philly and one third of the U S population actually lives within a five hour drive of our farm. So that's like an amazing market that we could reach. 

Right. And, I had met him yeah. That night, the executive director at the time of the crop trust. And, and they were taking pledges of action. You know, they didn't want pledges of money or anything like that. Pledges of action. And I said, I want to dedicate one of my greenhouse bays to the Food Forever ingredients. 

and then I ended up going to the Chicago event and had breakfast with Marie. And, and at that time, is this where we're sitting right now as a patch of dirt, the facility wasn't even here yet. And, You know, I told her my story and that I was inspired by everything they were doing, and they agreed to have a Food Forever experience here at Pocono organics. 

And for the first time to have it on a farm, instead of at, you know, Google or some kind of corporate location, 

Eli: [00:15:04] as we're sitting here still in the middle of COVID, you know, I think that also. Probably create some challenges and you guys have done a great job this morning with the virtual event, which I know went over really well.

And anybody out there, you will be able to find this living on the internet so that you can kind of hear a little bit more about it. You know, they had some guests from all over the world, I believe. Yeah. 

Ashley: [00:15:24] All over the world from Africa to Hawaii, it was just an amazing group of inspiring people. I just have amazing things to say, and it was great to you know, it's sad that COVID affected the event, that it couldn't run in its original format, but I'm really excited that so many people got to experience it now. Right? Thousands of people that tuned in this morning now get to hear what maybe a group of 50 or a hundred people usually get to hear. So I can't wait to hear in the next couple years how those people were inspired and what they're doing in their corners. 

Eli: [00:15:55] No, you just, you never know right? What's going to inspire you to do something. So I know you have a really great partner with Rodale Institute. And I know they're a part of your story as well. So talk to me a little bit about the Rodale Institute, cause I haven't introduced individuals to, and we're gonna have, we're gonna have some of them on the podcast little bit later. 

So what do they do? They're right here in Pennsylvania, maybe one of the best kept secrets in Pennsylvania. And what was that partnership like? 

Ashley: [00:16:21] So, you know, on my health journey, I started following them and the research papers and, and just really getting educated from them. they are located in Kutztown, which is about 45 minutes from us. 

And, when I started the idea from the farm, I'm not a farmer. My husband calls me the head grower of compost. Cause I kill all of my plants. A 

Eli: [00:16:44] lot of it goes in the compost pile, creating a material 

Ashley: [00:16:49] I've gotten better, I've gotten better, but, I just cold called Rodale and I told them my crazy idea of what I was planning. 

And they were like, why is a racetrack calling organic research station? Our family owns Pocono Raceway. I'm the third generation of our family business. And, and they took the meeting and they came up right before blizzard. And we, we told them, you know, our idea and, and they said, yes, let's, let's partner together with the amount of people that we could reach together using the racetrack as a platform to reach 250,000 people that come through our doors every summer. And many of them that come for our races stay in the infield and camp for four or five days. 

Eli: [00:17:28] Well, I wanted to talk about that because the juxtaposition here between regenerative organic and NASCAR and racing fans, I don't know if you get too much further on the spectrum. How has this been like introducing people to what you're doing here? 

Ashley: [00:17:46] I think, I think a lot of people think it's juxtaposition, but. A lot of people don't realize that NASCAR fans they're environmentalists, they're hunters, they're fishermen, they're farmers, you know, they care about the land. They like to watch race cars at the

same time. And what kind of really inspired me is, you know, you Yvon Chouinard at Patagonia and how you could have a business, but also start other businesses too. 

Offset, maybe the, you know, the effects of, of, of the racetrack. Right. So instead of just recycling and, and, things like that, like, let's take it to another level. You know, we have all this farm land here, this land where we are right now used to be a spinach farm farm in the sixties before the racetrack was here. 

Yeah. Well, my grandfather bought the land, so we always say we're going back to, to our roots and full circle, but yeah. You know, I think it's an amazing opportunity. With these people that are here in our infield for four or five days, you know, how many corn dogs can you eat? Right. And Hey, I'm a new mom. I don't want to feed my son crap all day long. Right. 

so we've set up different initiatives because we wanted to engage them and give them an experience. Right. Emotional souvenir. So maybe they haven't been exposed to organics. Maybe they don't know why. Oh, it costs a little bit more, but when they taste it and taste how fresh and how good it is and how different and flavorful it is compared to what they're usually used to at the grocery store, then they're like, wow, like this is the best tomato, the best corn I ever had. 

Yeah. So we've come up with three different tiers to kind of hit all of our fans. So last year we had a mobile farmer's market. Rodale actually brought up their mobile farmer's market at that time, we set that up in the infield. So all the infield camping guests had access to, to food for them. And then we have, next year, what are six seasons done for this year, but next year we'll have concession stands with organic options. 

And then we're the first venue to have a regenerative organic menu for our corporate suites. So at any tier, no matter where you're sitting at the track, we are going to have an offering for you to have clean, nutrient dense food while you're on property. 

Eli: [00:19:51] Wow. That's amazing. I mean, congratulations. See, I mean, I think the, you know, what you're doing and, and be able to see, you know, that there is opportunity not just to impact the region, but also individuals are coming into experience the Raceway and being able to taste what you're doing right here. 

Ashley: [00:20:09] Absolutely. And we set up a closed loop system with them. So we'll provide food to the track and then we'll take all their food waste and put that in the compost and use it to grow more food. So it's an amazing, you know, closed loop system that we have with them. 

Eli: [00:20:22] Yeah. And I mean, speaking of closed loop, like I think your whole operation is pretty much where you're off the grid, right. 

Ashley: [00:20:27] As much as we can be. Yeah. You know, we, we do everything here in our family businesses with sustainability in mind. And, I always kind of follow that with sustainability is not enough. It's great, but we need to start regenerating, but everything

here at this facility, we have a 30,000 square foot processing and packaging facility, that was all built to lead standards. 

we run off a three megawatt, 25 acre solar farm. That's been in operation for 10 years. That also powers the racetrack. And then we have 40,000 square feet of greenhouses. So we collect the rainwater from all 70,000 square feet. We store it and we use it for irrigation in our greenhouses. So we are as off the grid, as you can be and trying to take advantage of mother Earth's resources, right? 

Why deplete water systems and electrical grids when we have the rain and the sun that mother earth gave us and to capture that. 

Eli: [00:21:19] So if somebody visits, Pocono Organics, what can they expect to see, like what's going on here? 

Ashley: [00:21:24] So we have, we have a farm market that's open every day from eight to four. We have a farm cafe run by a chop champion, chef Lindsey McLean. 

that's open Thursday through Mondays eight to two. We do all kinds of private events. Including today, which is our biggest so far, but all kinds of educational classes, we call ourselves the global center for research, education discovery. So really bringing people in teaching them about regenerative, organic, what it is, what it means, why it's important for not just human health, but planetary health and water quality and soil health so to really engage them. 

So we have a couple of different programs. We have a clean food, dirty hands program for school kids, where they come in with their classes and a girl scout group is coming in on Sunday, actually, where we take them around, we show them, and we bring. I serve the special needs groups in as well. 

And we teach how to plant, how to harvest and then how to cook in a healthy way and start them young. We have a veteran farmer training program that Rodale's had an operation for four or five years now that we've expanded up here. So they spend the summer with Rodale. And then in the winter time, actually next week, the vet will be coming up here from Rodale and then working all winter in our greenhouses so they can see 

Eli: [00:22:35] you're actually reteaching or relearning them uncertain things that they might. So, for example, what, like somebody who is more of a conventional farmer or monocropping type farming, would they come up here and learn a little bit more about regenerative and soil health 

Ashley: [00:22:48] absolutely and the vets we've found just amazing results by using dirt therapy for their transition back to civilian life. 

They have that mission based mentality, right. And just for them to connect with the land again, and. And have that, that mission, we've just, we've been blown away, away by the results of how they kind of how they come here and how different they are when they leave

here. And that was actually the first one, the building that we had done was a five bedroom veteran house that they stay in when they're here. 

Yeah. And, and that's something close to our heart with our grandfather's legacy. He was a Marine, always took care of the armed forces. And, we're actually the only sports venue in the world that has a military affairs department just for, to handle that. So something close to our hearts and just continuing his, his legacy. 

Eli: [00:23:32] The great mission you're doing. Yeah. Very cool. 

Ashley: [00:23:34] And then just all kinds of educational classes from wellness retreats, yoga classes, food is medicine, nutritional classes. I mean, kids cooking classes, date night, cooking classes, paint and sips. I mean the whole gamut. There's a big lack of wholesome family fun anymore. 

Right. Right. And, and, so we, I just wanted to bring back those kinds of experiences to bring families together and to kind of embark on these journeys together as a family. You know, and do, do better 

Eli: [00:24:02] this facility that we're at right now and the greenhouses, it's hard for people to understand because I remember Eric telling me about, Oh yeah. 

They're like these three story greenhouses. They're massive. They're amazing. Dah, dah, dah. And you know, in my head I had a kind of a picture of it, but then you get here and you're like, Holy shit like this is no joke. I mean, you're not playing around here. I guess your family doesn't do things on a small scale. 

Right? You get the largest NASCAR track or largest track in North America. Right. And then, and then now you have this, like tell the audience, what is this? How big is this? 

Ashley: [00:24:37] My grandpa always told me don't half ass it, 

Eli: [00:24:39] you know, so, 

Ashley: [00:24:41] and to think bigger. Now we have about 40,000 square feet of greenhouses, eight different bays. 

There's three and a half stories, tall, 35 feet tall. So they are the largest twin peak greenhouses in North America. 

Eli: [00:24:53] The largest twin peak greenhouses in North America 

Ashley: [00:24:56] and they come from Canada. I don't think there's any other ones in the U S currently, really state of the art with, you know, Argis systems that control the humidity, the watering, the lights and things like that. 

but really for where we, on the top of the mountain, you know, it's very short growing season up here in our fields. So to get things started and to prolong our seasons and then grow all through the winter, I've researched so many different greenhouses and talked to so

many different people. And we went with this, this design, which will just be more energy efficient in, in the winter times. 

And we can have a snow melt system to melt the snow and ice off the roof and capture that for irrigation as well. but the cool thing is the, the polycarbonate that's on the outside of it has like a 96% light diffusion rate. So the bottom third of the plant gets just as much light as the top. And you go in there and there's no shadows at all, which is a big problem for greenhouses. 

Eli: [00:25:47] So really interesting. 

Ashley: [00:25:49] It really lets us reduce our use of a supplemental light. No supplemental lights, a lot of people. And they found this in Colorado with the medical marijuana grows. they use the old, the old halogen bulbs. They only last three months, they go into landfill and mercury is going into the soil. 

Mercury is going into the waterways. No good for anybody. So anything that we could do with forward thinking of not having, not being part of that problem and being part of the solution is why we chose to go. So 

Eli: [00:26:15] the actual design of the, and the height of the greenhouse that's right. Like there's so much absorption, I guess you can say of light that it brings it right down and in a concentrated level almost to the point. It 

Ashley: [00:26:27] just bounces all around in there. I mean, you need sunglasses. It gets so, so bright at 

Eli: [00:26:31] night. Yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. So along with your relationship with Rodale, there's much more than just vegetables going on here. 

What are some other aspects of what you're doing as far as growing and in research? 

Ashley: [00:26:44] for the last two years we've been on Rodale's industrial hemp research program. So they grow fiber variety down at Rodale, and we grow at CBD variety here. So their soil scientists are here weekly, and we do all kinds of research, to better the world of what hemp can do. 

It's an amazing plant, not only as a superfood, but how it can remediate soils and, and, I make land farmable again. So really amazing to be involved with them, of pushing that forward. And, we actually just started our own, organic CBD line that just launched and Rodale, you know, Rodale's logo. 

We're the only product in the world that bears the Rodale Institute logo because, you know, we follow their gold standard to the T. We started this farm immediately as a regenerative organic farm. That's how we started it two years ago. And, so we're happy to be part of the regenerative organic certification program that Rodale and Patagonia and Dr. Bronner's really spearheaded.

Eli: [00:27:39] Yeah. I mean, they're doing great stuff and they're actually going to be talking about they're releasing some scientific papers say, right. 

Ashley: [00:27:46] They, there's an amazing announcement of Rodale's white paper. I'll let Rodale kind of unveil that one. When you speak to that, give away any of their glory there, but some really amazing information. 

That's just going to help the whole world and people to think about the climate and what we can do and in a different way. And that's part of like what our future plans are here as well at Pocono organics is right now, we're growing a CBD variety, but we're in the works of putting 

together an industrial hemp fiber program where our main mission is to replace plastics in the world. 

You know, by 2050, there's gonna be more plastic than fish in the ocean, which is staggering to think about for our children. My husband's a professional surfer. We've gone to Indonesia and swam in the ocean where I thought a fish is touching me and it's a plastic bag in a plastic bottle and people don't realize. 

It's coming for us and it's going to be here soon. And by the time it's here, it's going to be too late. So, that's one of my big missions in the next couple of years. And we're working with various groups and doing lots of research and development to replace plastics with hemp, plastics that biodegrade 

Eli: [00:28:50] tell people like, how can they find you? What, what can we do to direct people to your mission? How can they support what you're doing here? 

Ashley: [00:28:56] Absolutely. Yeah. PoconoOrganics.com and on all the social media, we're just, Pocono Organics. So where people will reach out to me, my name, my email is Ashley@PoconoOrganics. Keep it simple around here. 

So I'm glad to hear from anybody and, and, so happy that you were able to join us today. And we finally got to meet, so thanks so much you do of educating all of us. 

Eli: [00:29:17] Yeah. Well, yeah, thank you. And, you know, congratulations, what a great event you have going on today. And I look forward to kind of seeing it play out. 

Ashley: [00:29:26] Thanks so much. 

Eli: [00:29:27] Keep going. I have sitting here with me in this conference room here, Cierra Martin and Cierra Martin is with the Crop Trust and really helping to facilitate the food forever experience that we're having here today. And Cierra. Introduce yourself. Talk a little about what you're doing. 

Cierra Martin: [00:29:46] Yeah. Thank you, Eli. so like you said, I work for The Crop Trust. I've been there for five years now and have been leading this experience series called the Food Forever Experience. just to give you a bit of background about the Crop Trust. The Crop Trust was founded in 2004. It's an international organization, with a mission to safeguard crop diversity for food security.

So, what that means is that we support a network of 1700 plus gene banks around the world and make sure that they receive funding in perpetuity so that they can continue their work. They don't have to worry about the lights turning off or paying their staff or keeping their refrigerators turned on. The global community recognizes the importance of having sustainable funding for gene banks. And so that, laid the foundation for starting the crop trust 

Eli: [00:30:28] while 1700. 

Cierra Martin: [00:30:29] Yes. 

Eli: [00:30:30] Over actually. 

So these gene banks, what are they? 

Cierra Martin: [00:30:34] Their seed storage facilities. If you want to go very simplistic with it, their freezers, they keep, they keep seeds alive. 

Eli: [00:30:42] Okay. Freezers. Okay. Now, these freezers, some are stored in some pretty cool locations, like the global food bank, right? in Norway. 

Cierra Martin: [00:30:50] So yeah, this Svalbard global seed vault is in Svalbard in Longyearbyen, Norway it's Like a thousand kilometers from the North pole. So it's the furthest North you can fly on a commercial airline. there's, there's more polar bears than people. Yeah. 

Eli: [00:31:03] Okay. 

Cierra Martin: [00:31:04] Yeah. So it's very remote. and it's the home of the seed vault, which is a global backup facility for the world's gene banks 

Eli: [00:31:10] for the world. So that one is like, has a little bit of everything. 

Cierra Martin: [00:31:15] Yes. So there's over 76 depositors I think now I'd have to check the number, but. Gene banks from all around the world. And I mentioned earlier that gene banks are like freezers, but in reality they're a lot more than that, 

Eli: [00:31:29] right? Yeah. That's what I was going to ask. Like they're obviously freezers, but they have. They are very important freezers. 

Cierra Martin: [00:31:34] Absolutely. And you have researchers and breeders that are there, maintaining the cold collections, also field collections. so they're actually making sure this diversity stays alive, but they're also packaging it up and shipping it around the world, for breeders that use it every day. 

Eli: [00:31:49] Right. So what's the importance of. Keeping biodiversity, and those types of facilities working. And are they really that important to the future of the planet and human civilization?

Cierra Martin: [00:32:02] I think they're pretty important, but you've heard of the Irish potato famine, right? 

Jeff Moyer: [00:32:06] Yes. Yes. 

Cierra Martin: [00:32:07] So that happened because Ireland was growing a lot of potatoes, but all of one kind, the lumper variety. 

and so one of the worst plant diseases, late potato blight came along and it wiped out every single one of those potatoes because they were all genetically identical. So, if you had grown a diversity of potatoes, there's actually 4,500 potatoes that exist in the world. if you'd grown 

up maybe, you know, a few different types of potatoes, then maybe blight would have hit a lumper variety, but other ones would have survived. 

Eli: [00:32:35] So we will get more into biodiversity a little bit throughout this day, because it's really focused on that. You know, as far as what you guys do, you're based in Germany. So this is an international effort and you guys are sort of the, kind of the cornerstone to it. Is that it? 

Cierra Martin: [00:32:53] To say that we're the only institution of our kind that's focused on supporting seed banks. 

So we're, we're one of a kind, the crop trust is set up as an endowment fund, so we're raising money. so that. That money has been invested in the capital markets and the investment income earned on that goes to support these seed banks. but the goal is that the foundation itself stays, stays intact so that, you know, it's a longterm, sustainable funding source. We never have to kind of continue and go back and fundraise. 

Eli: [00:33:20] Wow. When you do fundraise, is it events like this or is it, is it through other efforts that are able to bringing money to really support this, this cause 

Cierra Martin: [00:33:30] So we heard from Carrie Fowler earlier today, who talked about crop diversity, kind of being a global common good. 

And the fact that we're all interdependent. No country can stand alone and making the, the US relies on diversity all around the world. so 95% of the funding from the crop trust has come from governments, including the United States, Norway, because they realized that this material is important for food systems. 

but we're increasingly looking at the private sector and, you know, different groups that really need this crop diversity for every single thing they do. 

Eli: [00:33:57] Is this an NGO? 

Cierra Martin: [00:33:59] Yes, we're, we're an international organization. but nonprofit. 

Eli: [00:34:02] Okay. Interesting. So can you talk a little about as far as like, recounting, like the origins of this group and what was it that was really the catalyst, I guess, for the people

saying we need to have this, were there, were there issues around the world that they started to see? 

Cierra Martin: [00:34:20] Yeah, so I think that's a really good point. we're losing biodiversity every single day. And so I think it was this recognition that, you know, the, the United States has lost 90% of its fruit and vegetable varieties since the early 19 hundreds. Mexico has lost over 80% of its maize varieties. And so, we started seeing agrobiodiversity loss on a massive scale. 

And these seed banks are really some of the only places on earth that this material is still safeguarded. because of deforestation, urbanization, farmers, just not, you know, selecting diverse varieties because they're opting for more standard varieties that, yeah, when I 

Eli: [00:34:53] wanted to ask, like, why, why are, why have we lost all these different varieties over the years. What sorts of reason? 

Cierra Martin: [00:35:00] The reasons that I just mentioned. So, you know, urbanization, deforestation, farmer selection is a big thing because as our, you know, agricultural system became more industrialized, farmers stopped growing a diversity of crops because it wasn't as profitable. 

And so three new, all of those things combined with climate change, that's all, you know, kind of. Resulted in a huge loss of biodiversity and something that still persists every single day. And so you've got like small seed savers, you know, organizations like Seed Savers Exchange. Some farmers are safeguarding diversity, but it's really these, these 1700 gene banks around the world that are responsible for that. 

and if they're not safeguarding it, or if for some reason, you know, their collection is lost because as of a fire or a flood or a lack of funding, then. That material is extinct 

Eli: [00:35:43] as a consumer, like the audience out there who's, who's not here today and is interested in this. What kind of things can they do to support the work that you guys do, but also support, you know, making sure that biodiversity survives. 

Cierra Martin: [00:35:57] think it's about supporting institutions that are maintaining this diversity. so, you know, supporting the work of the crop trust of your local gene bank, but then also just being curious about the unique crop varieties that we have available to us. And we're, there's 30,000 edible species and we're eating only a handful of them. 

I think it's like 12 account for the majority of our daily calories. but there's so much more out there in terms of flavor and nutrition. and so I would just, you know, challenge your grocers, start visiting your local farmer's market. If you, if you can't find it available, start growing it simmer. 

Simran Sethi is the author of Bread, Wine and Chocolate, the slow loss of foods we love. She talks about envivo conservation, because gene banks that's called exito means out of field. and there's inxito, which means conserving in the field. And she talks about in vivo, which is

conservation by consuming and demanding diversity. And so I think that's the biggest action that individuals can take. 

Eli: [00:36:49] That's awesome. Anything else you want to talk about as far as like, Cierra Martin: [00:36:53] I'd love to talk about Food Forever quickly. 

Eli: [00:36:55] Yeah. Okay. So Food Forever is part of the Crop Trust. How does the relationship between Food Forever and the Crop Trust work? 

Cierra Martin: [00:37:02] The Food Forever is a communications campaign, which we started in 2017, to really raise awareness about what crop diversity is. You know, when you hear the term agrobiodiversity, you know, what the hell is that sometimes it's hard to wrap your head around. so we really created food forever to break down the jargon and to make this really 

tangible to individuals. 

And we realized one way to do that is through the plate of food. because you know, as an individual, I know that ending hunger is a good thing that, you know, we need to create more resilient crop varieties for climate change, but if it doesn't affect me every single day, suddenly I don't act on that. 

so we wanted to really highlight everybody's connection to crop diversity, and the fact that it really does underpin everything we eat and drink. And so we created Food Forever to do that. 

Eli: [00:37:44] That's wonderful. Can you tell me a little bit about, like what got you into this? What was the path that led you into really playing a huge part in how people are viewing biodiversity around the world and also helping to raise awareness and raising funds for such a great cause? 

Cierra Martin: [00:38:02] Yeah. I first kind of started getting into food and ag in Memphis, Tennessee, where I did that, my undergrad at Rhodes college, I was working for a food hub and we were supporting farmers in the area and aggregating them food and distributing it through a CSA. And part of that CSA went to low income communities in food deserts without access to a grocery store. 

and it was that experience where I realized that, you know, Good food. access to nutrition, affordable, healthy food is a right. It's not a privilege. And so, that was the first kind of turning point for me. I knew I wanted to be in the food and ag space. I thought about starting an urban farm and restaurant. 

and I was, I was working on that heavily. I went to Ireland to intern and it was there that I, was working for an urban farm and doing potato displays, which were basically five pound water cooler bottles filled with different types of things, potatoes. And my job as an intern was to lug those around the city and talk to people about potatoes. 

Eli: [00:38:53] Wow in Ireland 

Cierra Martin: [00:38:55] and Ireland. Yeah.

Eli: [00:38:56] Well, it seems like a conversation that happens a lot in Ireland, but make sure, not make sure they are not repeating the, the great potato fam and I guess talking about varieties, right. 

Cierra Martin: [00:39:09] I even know about varieties. I didn't know that potatoes originated in Peru or that there were over 4,000 of them. 

So that was really the first thing that got me interested and, That the Crop Trust has a really cool program with Rhodes college, where I went to school, where it supports a graduate waiting senior to go and work at the Crop Trust for a year. And so I applied for that fellowship and I got it. And I went there and I said, okay, you know, I'll be here for a year. 

And then I'll go back to my urban farm and restaurant dream. Five years later, I haven't left yet. and in that process, you know, the team that I worked with, we had this idea of the Food Forever experience. I was actually watching Dan Barber on Netflix, on the chef's table. And he's talked about. I'm breeding for deliciousness and how, you know, there's so many conversations going on in the food space, but the plate of food is where it's all at. 

and so that really inspired me and we kind of brainstormed with the team. We thought, what can we do here? The idea of the Food Forever experience was born. We tested it out. We met Ashley actually, that you'll speak to next in New York city in 2018 at the first Food Forever experience. And now here I am two years later sitting in the Poconos. it's been a really, it's been a really cool ride. 

Eli: [00:40:12] Crazy. Right. If you watch a Netflix show and a couple of years later, you are, we're talking. All right. Well, thank you so much. Best of luck with everything. Alright, bye. 

Okay everybody. right now we're going to take a quick break and give our pro bono shout out. We're talking about Franny Lou's Porch up in Kensington. the owner of Blew Kind really made this place not only, you know, where you can get a great cup of coffee using sustainable ingredients. really making sure that they're doing the right thing for the earth, but it is a place where you can get a side of activism and community engagement. 

You know, they're, they're there to make an impact, not just on the Kensington neighbors, but also around Philadelphia. There's so much, so many great things that can be happening and people that are, that are really taking that, that big leap of faith and, you know, not only using their restaurant or cafe as a place to give people a sustenance, but bring them in. 

Let's talk about these, these really important conversations that need to be happening, especially in the black neighborhoods about, you know, making sure that things are fair and just for everybody. So if you're up at, in the Kensington area, you need a great cup of coffee or a bite to eat. Look up Franny Lou's Porch. 

It's at 2400 coral street. tell them that the CHEF radio podcast sent you and, give them some love. So let's get back to the show.

Alright, so right now we are just entered in the room. We're talking with two incredible gentlemen that are involved with today. Jeff Moyer, who is the CEO of the Rodale Institute. Welcome Jeff. 

Jeff Moyer: [00:41:55] Thank you. Thanks for having me. Eli 

Eli: [00:41:57] glad you're here. And Eric Oberholser who wears many hats as we were just talking about, but he is a real champion of the food forever experience led by the crop trust. And he's also sits on the board of the Rodale Institute. Grew up in Kutztown, right area 

Eric Oberholser: [00:42:15] five minutes away from Rodale. 

Eli: [00:42:17] Wow. Full circle. also Eric is, most notable probably for, being one of the founders of Tender Greens, which is a restaurant group based in California. But you are a national now congratulations on that. 

Also, Eric sits on the board of the Rodale Institute and is a big proponent of. Of what the Crop Trust and also the Food Forever event is doing. Hey Eric. 

Eric Oberholser: [00:42:42] Good to be here. 

Eli: [00:42:43] You're in, you're not new to the CHEF radio podcast. You've been on a couple different ones. I consider you a good friend and also a great resource for bringing people together because you, you were sort of the, the linchpin here, when it comes to the CHEF Radio podcast being here today, and you know, what's going on here as well. 

I think you played a big part of that. So. Jeff. I want to start with you. I mean, CEO of the Rodale Institute, Eric was saying off Mike, that, you know, you've been with them for over 40 years. That's correct. 40 years. Wow. And interview earlier with Ashley Walsh, the founder of Pocono organics. I said the Rodale's Institute feel I like is one of the Pennsylvania's best kept secrets. 

Jeff Moyer: [00:43:25] Well, particularly here in Pennsylvania or maybe in the chef world, that's true. A is not quite as true in the farming community and maybe even the garden community. If you think back to how Rodale Institute got started really was the brainchild of GI Rodale, our founder, who was not a farmer, not a gardener, not particularly a foodie. 

other than the fact that he was concerned with the food he was eating and the impact it had on his personal health. He was a businessman, medical, electrical switch gears. If you think back to his starting out was in the late 1930s, he was of Jewish descent. Things were happening around the world, leading up to world war two and he was concerned about how he was going to feed himself, how he's going to eat healthy food. 

And so what a lot of wealthy people did was, you know, he bought a farm, but he didn't know anything about agriculture. So you start talking to professionals. About how you're going to farm and they talk about inputs. Made sense to him. He's a businessman, inputs in, outputs out. That's how his factory worked.

That's maybe how the farm should work until they started talking about what those inputs were. Salt base fertilizer and synthetic pesticides. Poison. So he's saying, well, I'm going to eat this food. How does poison turn it into healthy food. What does the soil do with poison to turn it into healthy food? 

And of course the experts said, that's not the case. That's not what happens. And clearly it doesn't happen. And he said, well, well then why would I use that? Why would I use tools that don't help me meet my, my objectives or my goals. Launched into this, the whole conversation around organic that was in the late 1930s, early forties. And by 1942, he wrote some words on a Blackboard. He said that healthy soil equals healthy food equals healthy people. 

Eli: [00:45:08] So this is 1942, 

Jeff Moyer: [00:45:09] 1942. Wow. And at that point he launched the organic movement as we know it today. So the Rodale is Institute has been around for over 70 years. We may be a best, kept secret. 

Many people know the name, Rodale from some of the publishers that took place because he started a publishing business shortly after that. but, the, the Institute was set up as a nonprofit to do research and education around the area, the area of organic agriculture. Originally he wanted to create a foundation and the name of the Institute really had the word foundation in it cause he wanted to give money. 

Yeah. The way to people to do the research and yeah, in a land grant, universities wouldn't do it. They wouldn't take his money. They said we don't want to do that kind of research. We're interested in input agriculture. And so we started our own research and education facility and we've been there ever since. 

Eli: [00:45:53] Right. Yeah. That vicious cycle that a big ag has inputs, fertilizers, other, other things that basically keep this desert, like soil able to grow product is a big part of what's so wrong with where American food has gone over the years. 

Jeff Moyer: [00:46:11] And you can't really blame farmers for all that, because farmers are just doing what we incentivize them to do. 

As you mentioned, big ag is trying to produce tonnage as cheaply as possible. we've never asked farmers to produce high quality nutritious product at a reasonable cost. We've asked them to produce commodities at the lowest price possible, and that's what they've done now. I think what we're seeing in, in, in, in restaurants, in a super markets, as people think more about the relationship that they have with the food they consume and what that relationship means to their own. Personal health. We're seeing a dynamic change and that's 

Eli: [00:46:47] exciting. That's amazing. Yeah. Eric, your involvement, you know, going back to growing up near it, but your restaurant group, you know, really champions, a healthy eating lifestyle. And then coming back to Pennsylvania. And being involved again with Rodale is to, you know, that seems like a pretty complete circle to me.

Can you talk a little bit about like your history with them and how you got into? 

Eric Oberholser: [00:47:13] Yeah, I, it's funny. I was in Prevention Magazine, which, was published by Rodale when I was five 

Eli: [00:47:20] I'm. Okay. 

Eric Oberholser: [00:47:21] Eating some, a warm breakfast cereal. so I was very famous back then in the Rodale. And, growing up just down the street from Rodale, I didn't know much about it. 

there were amazing things being done, but it wasn't really integrated into the school system. And, you know, it was just a sign that I would pass on the roadway and it wasn't until years later that. I was doing a lot of early work with regenerative, organic agriculture, local food systems in California and Rodale started to pop up and with a sense of hometown pride, I, I reached out, particularly when I knew I was coming back East to open my restaurant in New York. 

And, they were great. It's just enough to receive me at the Institute. I took a tour and it was really full circle and it was, it was a great way to, to kind of come home back to the East coast, back to Kutztown. and I was just overwhelmed with hometown pride that this. Amazing work, this incredible institution that influenced so much of my life that I didn't ever realize it. 

Eli: [00:48:39] Right, right. Yeah. We'll get more into that. But you know, with Rodale being really the start of the organic movement in America and, you know, California being sort of the epicenter of it. Right. And you had no idea where actually came from, right? 

Eric Oberholser: [00:48:53] So sometimes you have to come home to really understand yourself. 

Eli: [00:48:56] Absolutely. That's great. And then what, like you started working with them or more closely? 

Eric Oberholser: [00:49:02] I, I got deeper into what was happening at Rodale and, got to know, both Jeff Moyer and Jeff Catch. And there was a real effort at the time to, to reach a broader audience, beyond the farming community beyond, you know, sort of academic circles and policy wanks and, and reach consumers. 

and it was good timing for me as a chef because, you know, as you know, no Eli, we, we take a lot of this and we, you know, we, we put it into what you, we create markets. we find, ways to make it relatable to people in their everyday lives. so that's. I joined the board. And really what I try and do with Rodale is, take actionable activities at Rodale and bring it to, to people, in a language that they can understand. And a lot, a lot of times that's edible insight. 

Eli: [00:50:00] Very cool. we were talking earlier, also in. Yeah, Eric, you mentioned as, as we often refer to a chef's chef, as somebody who is, who's really in the position they are because they, they really care. They give a shit and they also relate to chefs and they're not necessarily out there earning clicks or likes on their Instagram, but they're, they're deep in it.

They're the ones that are really pushing the message forward without really having to say a lot. You related Jeff to a farmer's farmer, which I thought was really, really cool. Really smart. Jeff, when, when you hear him say that, what is it that makes you sort of earn that respect from Eric? what do you do that makes you a farmer’s farmer? 

Jeff Moyer: [00:50:47] Well, it's certainly kind of Eric to say that, and it's, it's nice to be known as maybe a farmer’s farmer. I think it's a combination of things. Being able to farm at home, which we run a farm. My son actually runs the farm now and has grown it into a much more substantial operation than it was when I ran it. 

But it is a certified organic farm that we have there. And then, Because I spent over 40 years as a farm director or at the Rodale Institute, really developing a lot of the principles and practices that are put into place on farms. It's allowed me to interact with farmers around the world. Across the country and, and develop these, these some innovative principles, like the, 

Eli: [00:51:31] give us some examples of, of sort of your bigger successes or things that you're really proud of along the way that, that are now being used, sort of around the world. 

Jeff Moyer: [00:51:40] Well, there's, there's a couple of things, I really got interested in looking at no till agriculture. It's pretty easy as a non farmer to think about the soil from maybe an earthworms perspective. And if you come in there with a plow or some sort of tillage tool, it's probably not a very good day because everything that you've built in terms of your your house in the soil has just been literally turned upside down or destroyed. 

So we know that tillage can be disruptive to the life in the soil. There's actually, your listeners might be interested to know there's more life below the surface of the soil. More diversity below the surface of the soil. And there is above the surface of the soil 

Eli: [00:52:16] across the planet. 

Jeff Moyer: [00:52:17] Across the planet. for example, our farm at home is a dairy farm and we can graze eating the grass about one cow per acre here in Pennsylvania. There a cow weighs maybe 1,000, 12 hundred pounds. But below ground, we have over 10,000 pounds of microbes grazing on the roots of those plants. 

So over 10 times, as much below the ground, as there is above the ground, if you'd like cut it up, pull it all out and weigh it. So that's pretty amazing. It's much more efficient and effective below ground. So that's kind of, kind of exciting. So we, we don't want to disturb that any more than we have to. 

Yet as farmers, we have to manage weeds. Conventional agriculture uses pesticides and they spray it round up. Most of your listeners probably rode around inorganic systems. We, we, we really didn't have a good tool. So I developed what's called a roller crimper, which allows farmers to manage cover crops in a way that they can use modern high-tech no till planting equipment but still use the biology of cover crops to improve the health of their soil and still sort of a marriage of those two things.

So, early, you know, 20 years ago, it was thought to be impossible to do organic, no till, and now we have millions of acres across the planet that are doing it so that the tool is being broadly adapted and adopted by farmers, not just organic farmers, but conventional farmers as well. 

So that's probably one of my highlights, you don't get too many of those in a lifetime. The other is probably the, the creation of the regenerative organic certification standard, linking the word regenerative, which means kind of improving the system while you use it with organic, to create a, a certification standard and a label and a logo that consumers can look for in the marketplace. 

Eli: [00:53:57] So regenerative organic. Yeah. Regenerative to me, right. Means like something's dead and you make it alive or somebody is dying and you make it, live better. Is that, is that what this is? Is that exactly what we're doing? We're saying that 

Jeff Moyer: [00:54:15] not exactly is it's saying we're taking what, we've, what we've got and we're trying to broaden its ability to not just be sustainable, but to grow as we use it to, to improve. If you think about agricultural production systems from a bylaw surgical standpoint, then it's kind of easy to think about it. An improvement. For example, us as human beings, we're a system of biology. 

If we eat right and exercise, we actually get healthier. We don't wear out. The idea with the soil is we can grow crops. We can produce the food we need, and if we do it in the right way, the soil doesn't wear out, it actually improves. If we focus on the biology, that's the idea. the other, the other piece is we expand that to include a few other additional pillars besides soil health. 

We believe that animal welfare is important because that's an. Consumers come to the marketplace with a suite of values in general, not just a single value, animal welfare is important. Social justice issue issues are important to a lot of consumers. And so we embody social justice components in our regenerative organic standard as well. 

Eli: [00:55:21] And what's an example of that. 

Jeff Moyer: [00:55:23] Well, for example, the organic standard that we follow here in the United States, that's owned by the USDA and pretty much sets the standard for the world, has no language in it around social justice. So for example, you could buy an organic, cotton. Let's just say you bought organic cotton. 

It was produced in Turkey. It could have been harvested by child labor and there's nothing within the organic standard that talks about that. Oh yeah. That's an important value to customers and consumers. And so we, we brought that on boarded onto our, standard for regenerative organic. 

Eli: [00:55:55] Very cool. Very cool. 

Now, Eric, you've been working with great products for a long time. You went out to California in the nineties, early two thousands. Was it

Eric Oberholser: [00:56:05] 91 

Eli: [00:56:06] 91. And you know, that's really sort of where you organic and you know, the farm to table movement. And you know, you think of Alice Waters and Berkeley and you know, the stories of what was happening there. 

And, you know, you were there when a lot of that was happening. What is today, you know, versus back then, what type of successes have you seen and things that you continue to think that, you know, Rodale Institute is going to have a major hand in continuing to kind of push everything forward. 

Eric Oberholser: [00:56:37] I think, you know, first Rodale continues to to push us forward. I'm not relying strictly on the organic certification, which is already challenging for a lot of restaurant teachers to adhere to and farmers, to, to live up to, but, moving us even further. I think Jeff underscored something that's really important in that social justice. so there's, you know, the soil health, there's the impact on the environment. 

there's the impact, to the, to the crops themselves. There's animal welfare. You've met my chickens. They, they are, 

Eli: [00:57:13] I named one of your chickens there 

Eric Oberholser: [00:57:15] Portlandia 

Eli: [00:57:17] don't remember 

Eric Oberholser: [00:57:18] it's my favorite chicken. But yeah, if anybody, yeah, has chickens, you know, that they want to get out and they want to roam around. 

animals need to be cared for, just as, our, our, our dogs do and our kids do and everything. It needs space and, and care. And we knew that in, in, in San Francisco back then. but I think the language which has evolved, the science has been strengthened and, and, and, and the most important thing about this is that it's a, it's getting out of the. 

But let's say the, the privileged few and, organics is a movement that has continued to grow year over year. you, you can go to the shelves of a Walmart or a Costco and see massive volumes of organic products being moved. There's super high demand. Is it? In fact, there's more demand in the United States for organics and there is supply. So we have to look outside of the US 

Eli: [00:58:25] that's interesting, 

Eric Oberholser: [00:58:26] which is a problem. And. I'm hopeful that as, as we build more, transparent supply chains, whether it's through third parties certification and like the new ROC or, you know, principles of agrobiodiversity the city, supported by blockchain technology that can connect, consumers directly to, to, to the women harvesting folio in West Africa.

the more information consumers have, the more connected they are to the purchases, the more likely they're going to purchase along their value system. and, and if they do that, it's going to create greater and greater demand for organics. and, and I think the supply chain will respond positively to that. 

Eli: [00:59:14] Cool. So clearly Jeff and the Rodale is too, you guys have been busy over the years. You've made an impact. He must be very proud of what you've done over the years. You've done all that research. The no till concept, I think is still something that is getting out there. 

Yeah. I've heard it a few times from different farmers. One question I have as a chef and a chef and worked in New York city and also worked in Philadelphia, you know, kind of around this area for a while. What does the Rodale institute’s relationship between restaurants and chefs and what should chefs who are listening to this know about you and find ways to help support, help get the word out? 

I know you guys are more of a scientific research. You know, you're more on the scientific side, but I guarantee you that people listen to this are going to hear this and be like, Holy shit. Like. No, this is right here. This is only 45 minutes from Philadelphia. What kind of relationship have you had with chefs and how can chefs play a more of a role in what you guys are doing? 

Jeff Moyer: [01:00:19] Well, Eli you're you're you're right about one thing. I mean, we, we, we come at the solutions that we're looking for two huge problems. Broken food system problems from a scientific perspective, but we're much more than about science. And that's why I think it's important that we're having this conversation. 

Because there's a lot of interaction that we can have with chefs that we need to have. There's a lot of interactions and communications that we should be opening up with consumers. And we're starting to do that. the mere fact that every chef knows the word organic. It means that Rodale is doing his job. 

We've just been doing it behind the scenes. We're trying to become a little more vocal and a little more showy about who's doing that and why it's important to know that because we are a nonprofit and we have to function in that way. So one of the things we clearly will do is invite any chef that wants to come out and visit us to our facility. 

And I know with COVID, it's a little hard to travel and move around, but we are open. We've been, we've never been closed because we're considered an essential workforce. but we'd love to invite chefs out. Maybe we can have a chefs event where we bring people out in mass w with their peers to showcase the kind of work that we're doing and why it's important for them to carry that message forward with their customers. 

Eric Oberholser: [01:01:30] Yeah. We should get some Philly chefs to do a Throwdown at the Institute. 

Eli: [01:01:36] Yeah. Right.

Eric Oberholser: [01:01:36] Harvest. and there's an amazing barn there to, to host a dinner, bring some barbecues, a lot of sharp knives and a bunch of chefs, maybe a little bit of organic beer, and we could have a good day of it. There you go. 

Jeff Moyer: [01:01:49] At the very least, I mean, everybody should be checking out our website and seeing the dynamic work we're doing. And you'll see that we've got to. at that location, we've got a 330 acre facility, but we actually have seven facilities across the country. We've got a research facility in California. 

We've got one in Iowa. We have one in Georgia. We have one right here in the Poconos where we're sitting today having this conversation. So we, we have seven locations. We have a, a, farm to hospital, patient plate farm in with St. Luke's hospital in Easton, Pennsylvania. So we literally grow food on the land. 

That's owned by the hospital within sight of their doctor's parking lot. And the food comes from the farm onto patients' plates. Well, along with note cards about how it's important that they change their eating habits, so much so that we've become, we've initiated a program with temple. A university's medical school to bring doctors out to the farm. If we can get doctors to the farm and medical students, we sure is actually be able to get chefs to the farm. 

Eli: [01:02:56] You got to get Stephen Klasko out there from Jefferson. He's really interested in this. Like he, he really wants, he really believes in that. So 

Eric Oberholser: [01:03:03] yeah. Dr. Bon Ku, who will be here tonight, is a friend of mine, but it runs the Jefferson design lab. And, we were talking about this because he's on his own journey from 

Eli: [01:03:15] here tonight. 

Yeah. And he's, he's been transitioning towards a plant based diet and, has had 

Eric Oberholser: [01:03:21] his own struggles with, with that journey despite having all of these resources. So I, I think, I think Jeff and, and the Institute are on to something, because food truly is medicine and it's really why Rodale exists. It was healthbased food. 

Jeff Moyer: [01:03:38] Food is medicine, but really soil is medicine. It starts with the soil. If you don't have healthy soil, you can't have healthy food. So the assumption that every carrot is exactly the same, it's just silly. It's like saying every person's the same or every table's the same or every car's the same. 

It's not true. They have similarities. I mean, every car has a steering wheel of some sort. It's a propulsion unit of some sort has four tires for the most part. And it moves down the highway. But that's the, that's the only thing it has in common with many other vehicles. 

Eric Oberholser: [01:04:09] We've known that forever as chefs through flavor and texture.

but Rodale has, I mean, the carrot, you have a. You have some real science and real data around the carrot, the difference between a conventionally grown carrot and a organically grown carrot and how the nutrition sort of dilutes out or disappears 

Jeff Moyer: [01:04:29] nutrients and the yeah. The flavonoids and all of that is completely different. 

And it makes perfect sense. If you talk to Wineries and vintners, they will tell you that the taste of the wine comes from the soil. 

Eli: [01:04:42] Terroir absolutely comes from the sweat 

Jeff Moyer: [01:04:44] while at the same is true with tomatoes and carrots and potatoes. Yeah. Chickens and everything else that it starts with the soil. 

So yes, our food is our medicine, but it starts with the soil. We have to keep going sort of upstream or, or back to in the story to find out where it starts. And you can't expect to have a healthy diet coming from food that was produced on a unhealthy soil, 

Eli: [01:05:03] right. That doesn't work. A big part of today is that there's an announcement happening. 

And you announced that virtually this morning. And I think we're going to talk about a little bit more this evening, with the, with the event. What, what are the white papers? What is what's going on there with the research that you've been doing there? 

Jeff Moyer: [01:05:21] Well, Rodale Institute feels it's really important that we take some positions on certain topics. So we write position papers or white papers. We sent one out, published one in June of this year. That was called the power of the plate that really talked about the links between soil health and human health. Today we launched the paper. Linking regenerative agriculture and soil health to climate change. 

So the way we manage the soil improves our personal health, but it also improves, improves planetary health. That's really critical because for a long time, agriculture has been left out of the conversation around climate change, because nobody wants to pick on the food production industry. Yet, if you're not considered part of the problem, it's difficult to be considered part of the solution. 

Rodale Institute is very much a solutions based organization. And if you look at the way we farm and by changing the way we farm, we can actually sequester more carbon that we're emitting into the atmosphere. It's really scary when you look at it. we put, we published a paper in 2014 on the same subject. 

it was an eyeopener. It was call to attention to the problem, but it didn't really solve the problem today. Our paper that we launched talks about the solutions to the problem, right. And it's really not a, a call it's more an alarm to pay attention. It's really an invitation. To join us on a journey that leads us to a, to a better future. So that's what we're talking about in that paper.

Eli: [01:06:48] So you just used a word. I think that, people are getting more used to a lot of people out there probably haven't heard carbon sequestering, sounds like a very complex word. It sounds like there's a lot that goes into it. What, what does that mean exactly? 

Jeff Moyer: [01:07:04] Well, it's a complex word. It's a really simple principle. The idea is that when we burn fossil fuels, when you heat your home, you turn on the lights, you drive your car, you get an airplane. Fossil fuels is based on carbon, and that carbon is going into the atmosphere. But if you paid attention in junior high science, you learn that plants breathe in CO2 and give off O2. Where does this, the C is carbon, 

Eli: [01:07:31] where where's it go? Right? 

Jeff Moyer: [01:07:33] It's in the soil. So the more photosynthesis we have happening, the more we're sequestering carbon in the soil, you want to take it out of the air and put it in the soil. So it's a fairly simple concept. Of course, the biology that the plant uses to, to, to practice photosynthesis is complicated, but we don't have to do anything about that. 

We just have to know that it works. And that means we have to keep the ground covered with something green and growing 12 months out of the year. It's fall here in Pennsylvania is fall in the Midwest and it's going to be fall in the far West shortly. If you travel from Pennsylvania to California in about six weeks, everything you see is going to be Brown that's criminal. 

It means that there's nothing. There's no photosynthesis taking place on millions and millions and millions of acres of landscape. We should be covering it with a cover crop agriculture needs to shift and change. And if we do some simple implement some simple practices, we can not only slow down the carbon emissions that are going into the atmosphere. 

We can stop it and even reverse it by simply changing the way we farm. And we do that by encouraging people to change the way they buy food. Everybody makes choices. you choose how you heat your house. You choose how you travel around the world and you choose how you eat and you should make that choice three times a day, four times a day, I don't know, five times a day, depending who you are, make the right choice and you can have a huge impact on the climate. That's what the paper talks about. 

Eli: [01:09:00] Right so you mentioned cover crops and the importance of them. What does a cover crop like? Is this something that, the harvest and eat later, or is this something that just dies in the, in the field? What is, what a cover crop? 

Jeff Moyer: [01:09:14] In Agriculture we sort of break crops into two categories, cash crops. Obviously that's a crop you sell for cash and a cover crop, which is a crop you use to improve the healthier soil. We need to incentivize farmers through policies, through, regulations to encourage them and incentivize them to cover the ground with something green and growing. 

If you don't, why would they? So we as a society make that choice and we can make that choice in the marketplace,

Eli: [01:09:39] these cover crops, what do they do with them besides cover a field of what's the point of them? Well, 

Jeff Moyer: [01:09:45] the point is to build the health of soil, all that microbial life in the soil in order, in order to trap that carbon. They need to have access to sunshine. Most of that microbial life in the soil doesn't want to do sunbathing. They want to be under the ground right. Where they like it, but they need to get, carbohydrates from a plant and they get it through the roots. So. When the plants there are growing, collecting sunlight, most plants are just solar collectors. 

That's all they are. They're solar collectors. And so we need to cover the ground with all these millions and millions of solar collectors capture the energy from the sun. Take that carbon CO2, put it in the soil, trap it there. And that's carbon sequestration. That's why cover crops do that. Bare ground cannot. 

Eli: [01:10:25] Right? Right. So, some of you out there might know, who are listening about the importance of. You know, photosynthesis and, and, and carbon sequestering, but those are don't, you know, you gotta think of it like this a little bit. I think where, you know, the crops that you buy at the store, like commodity grown products, a lot of it from California, maybe Mexico, or even the Midwest. 

Right. I definitely have some, but a lot of that product goes to, raising cattle. Right. Which we won't get into that. But when the ground lays barron, over the winter and, there's no moisture and it sort of sits there. What is happening as far as like your Rojan goes in that soil and is cover cropping a good example of how to stop the erosion from happening? 

Jeff Moyer: [01:11:11] Yeah, absolutely. soil that's. And people see that in their backyard, you can do it with a flower pot, just put some soil there and let it rain on it. And you'll see it wash off the flower pot. If there's a plant there, it doesn't. So yeah, plants stop windy roads and they stop watery erosion. They help in times of flood, they help in times of drought. 

it's just, it's not a miracle, but it's amazing how covering the ground with something green and growing can improve the health of the soil. 

Eli: [01:11:33] So the entire Midwest essentially gets tilled up every year Jeff Moyer: [01:11:39] or sprayed with pesticides to burn it off. Exactly. 

Eli: [01:11:42] Okay. So pesticides kill to kill whatever there or tilled up. It grows for about what about five months a year? Roughly 

Jeff Moyer: [01:11:51] barely four is more like it 

Eli: [01:11:53] barely four months a year. Although we all the corn that we eat or that, that goes into your, into your croissant every morning. and then it just sits barren over the winter. What would happen, how many acres are in the Midwest?

I don't even know millions. Right? Millions and millions. What would happen if there was a cover crop planted on top of that? And like, would that have an impact on the world's, climate potentially. 

Jeff Moyer: [01:12:18] Absolutely. That's what our paper talks about. If you would take all of theland, that's farmed and grazed around the world, we can sequester or take carbon out of the atmosphere more than a hundred percent of what we're currently putting in. So while we talk about conservation or we talk about reducing our emissions, it's something we should do, and we're not suggesting otherwise. But what we are saying is if you do the math scientifically, we can sequester a hundred percent of what we're emitting today, back into the soil. And we can begin to reverse the problems we're having with climate change. 

Eric Oberholser: [01:12:49] what are the challenges though? Is it policy, government policy that's incentivizing this type of farming? Is it the challenge to transition from conventional or monocropping to regenerative organic? What are, what are some of the big, 

Jeff Moyer: [01:13:06] yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of challenges and barriers. 

Eric you've identified some of them. Yeah. Some of it is, policy and legislation that disincentivizes, that behavior, some of it is consumer demand. Consumers have never asked for that. They've never said it was important to us as consumers. So farmers will say why. Why should I do it? I already do everything I can. 

I work as hard as I can. My crop is continuously devalued, and now you're asking me to do more with less. How can I, why should I? We have to rethink the entire food production model and begin to incentivize the behavior we want as a society and farmers can and will do that for us. We just have to make it possible and practical, 

Eli: [01:13:49] Speaking of consumer demand are one of the statements I hear when people talk about buying organic is that it's a, it's a farce. Like what's the point of it? Why am I going to pay 50% more for this? it looks the same, you know, it smells the same, you know, What is when you buy organic, what is happening with those dollars? 

Like what is the reason that you're spending the extra money? Cause it can't just be for flavor. What is behind the scenes when you spend that money what's happening? Well, what 

Jeff Moyer: [01:14:22] you're doing when you buy into an organic product is you're buying into the entire process, starting with the certification. It's an additional certification that you have to have to be able to sell that product, to put the word organic on it, that our conventional neighbors don't you have more time. It's it, it's more. Handcrafted product there's, there's more to it than just the looks. yeah, you can have two apples once convinced organic. 

They both look like apples. I got it. But there's a completely different process behind that. And while you may not initially see the difference, your body can tell the difference in the amount of nutrients that are in it, the flavanoids that are in it, the vitamins and minerals that are in it, the, the phytonutrients.

a good example would be ergothioneine. Most people never even heard of ergothioneine yet as scientists we've known it's existed since I think 1909. It's an amino acid. Nobody knew where it came from or what it did. It's in food. There's 50% less in our food today than there was 50 years ago. We're losing about 1% a year of earth ergothioneine. Ergothioneine is in an amino acid in your body helps your body prevent certain neurological diseases like attention deficit disorder, autism and Alzheimer's. 

What is on the rise today in our populations around the world? Attention deficit disorder, autism, and Alzheimer's. How has the produced, it's produced by fungus's in the soil. That's the only place it comes from. We can't manufacture it. So we need to get that back into our food. We need to farm differently to do that. And we need to support that, through the marketplace 

Eli: [01:15:58] in closing, you know, I think we'd spend all day here and maybe we'll have another podcast down the road, but what we're here today to do is to really talk about the future of food. And you know, what you guys are doing is a big part of that. 

Honestly, I just wanna say thank you for everything you've done. And I think you've, you've opened thousands or millions of eyes, without people even realizing who did it. So I feel honored to be talking to you. So thank you. 

Jeff Moyer: [01:16:23] It's certainly been my pleasure to be here. 

Eli: [01:16:25] Thank you. If people out there are interested in finding more about you and the Institute, how do they go about doing that? 

Jeff Moyer: [01:16:32] Well, of course today, the easiest way to find us is on the internet and look at our website. It's a Rodale Institute. So it's www.rodaleinstitute.org. Or if you Google search and are being searched at whenever your search engine is just look for roads. 

Eli: [01:16:45] Rodale is R O D A L E 

Jeff Moyer: [01:16:47] Correct. R O D A L E Institute. It's up and you'll get some information. I'd love to chat with anybody who's listening and wants to contact us. 

Eli: [01:16:56] And the white papers that, you've announced today, where can people find those? 

Jeff Moyer: [01:17:00] They can find those on our website. If they go on there, they're free to download and they can read them at their leisure. 

Eli: [01:17:05] All right. Excellent. Sounds like some good reading. 

Jeff Moyer: [01:17:07] It is. It's definitely interesting. 

Eli: [01:17:09] Thank you again, Jeff. the Rodale Institute really appreciate you being here, Eric, of course, as always appreciate you being here. 

Eric Oberholser: [01:17:17] Thanks Eli. All right.

Jeff Moyer: [01:17:18] Thank you, Eli. 

Eli: [01:17:24] Thanks for listening to the CHEF Radio podcast. If you'd like to support the show, please leave us a review. Wherever you listen to your podcast, it helps others find the show and allows us to continue to make great content. The CHEF radio podcast is produced by RADIOKISMET. Postproduction and sound designed by Studio D podcast production. And I am your host, Eli Kulp.